650D/T4i Raw Video

[jimmyD30]

I guess it's what you plan on using it for... Home videos, school plays, weddings, ok h.264 is fine. But for filmmaking, doesn't cut the mustard IMO. I've seen and have done my own native h.264 vs ML RAW and there really isn't a comparison, raw is tremendously better. I've even compared h.264 1080p vs raw 720p upressed to 1080p and the raw was just blew away the native h.264.

See comparison here: https://vimeo.com/85974454

The drawbacks of h.264 for fillmaking are just too overwhelming to consider it a high value option, variable bit rate compression, low dynamic range, embedded picture style, etc.

As far as the GH4 which has a four thirds sensor vs full frame in the 5D, you will get images that have a shallower depth of field, greater dynamic range, and better low-light sensitivity with the larger sensor of the 5D, this is simply due to the laws of physics as it pertains to light waves, not the camera so much... What the camera does with those light waves is another story which is why raw is so desirable, because with raw the camera does just about nothing to them, of course sensor quality being another factor in the equation. So taking all this into consideration, for filmmaking anyway, I don't see h.264 video and the smaller sensor on the GH4 as being worthwhile option even with 4K.

Of course this assessment is simply from a technical point of view, not quality of content.

[rainless]

Yeah but the canons don't NATIVELY shoot in raw. And what you get on a canon raw shoot is far from guaranteed. So that's the trade'off unless you get a black magic pocket where the raw IS guaranteed.

And you're forgetting my point: 4k raw is where we're headed... sooner rather than later. (Sony could probably do that now with a firmware update.)

[jimmyD30]

Yes, Canon does not natively shoot raw, but this is a ML forum and raw is what we are talking about, else we would be discussing this in a Canon forum.

So far for me raw has worked out well on the 650D, but other 650D users have had some hiccups. But as far as the 5D goes, professionals are relying heavily on their ML raw features on a daily basis and feature length films have been made using solely a 5D with ML RAW, so I can't agree with you that it's far from being guaranteed. ML RAW works, especially on the 5DM3.

Now Black Magic has it's own issues as far as RAW goes, and if you compare any BM and even most RED cameras to a 5DM3 using raw, the 5D delivers better images. I'm not going to go into detail of those comparison here for two reasons, one, this is a 650D thread, and two, you can find such comparisons elsewhere on the web.

I certainly agree with you that 4K is where the industry is heading, but right now the only viable viewing medium is a movie theater as there really are no mass produced 4K televisions available to speak of, and so if the theater is what you're aiming for, there are simply too many disadvantages of a 4K compressed image from a crop sensor to make sense right now for such a medium.

Let me say I've enjoyed our discussion on this matter and will be glad to read your response, but I won't reply any further to this specific topic any more, NOT anything to do with you, just thinking the moderators may not appreciate this lengthy of an off thread-topic discussion ;-)

[rainless]

What are you kidding? I'm sure we've bumped them up at least three notches on the Google keyword search! 

Back to the 650D thing though. I can conclude the whole thing on two notes: nice buffer, but there's a reason why they went from the 650 to the 700 so quickly.

[jimmyD30]

Yeah, coming out with the 700D so soon after the 650D really perplexed a lot of people. If you do a side-by-side comparison of the two there's little difference or improvement with the 700D.

Here's a breakdown where the reviewer calls it a tie between the two: http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon-EOS-650D-vs-Canon-EOS-700D

What's your opinion on why they came out with the 700D so quickly?

[rainless]

Yeah, coming out with the 700D so soon after the 650D really perplexed a lot of people. If you do a side-by-side comparison of the two there's little difference or improvement with the 700D.

Here's a breakdown where the reviewer calls it a tie between the two: http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon-EOS-650D-vs-Canon-EOS-700D

What's your opinion on why they came out with the 700D so quickly?

I think the 650D was rushed to market in the first place. I remember it came out about a week or two after I got my 600D and I was mad as hell... then was an immediate recall because the grip was giving people skin rashes (that made me feel a little better) http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/canon-recalls-eos-650d-cameras-says-faulty-grip-could-cause-skin-rash-1092239

That's just what was going on for the OUTSIDE of the camera.  On the inside there were all these weird little sensor issues and other issues associated with the AF... http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50717250

I think there was more wrong with the camera than people knew about... but CANON knew of course. So they decided to quickly release the 700D. Exactly like what Nikon did with the D600 and almost immediately replacing it with the D610 (which I didn't even realize had happened until I went to the camera shop last month.)

[Walter Schulz]

I think the 650D was rushed to market in the first place. I remember it came out about a week or two after I got my 600D and I was mad as hell...

Type: Announcement date
450D: 23 January 2008
500D: 25 March 2009
550D: 8 February 2010
600D: 7 February 2011
650D: 8 June 2012
700D: 21 March 2013

In fact time gap between announcements of 650D and 600D is the largest in xxxD lineup since 450D came up the horizon.

[rainless]

Type: Announcement date
450D: 23 January 2008
500D: 25 March 2009
550D: 8 February 2010
600D: 7 February 2011
650D: 8 June 2012
700D: 21 March 2013

In fact time gap between announcements of 650D and 600D is the largest in xxxD lineup since 450D came up the horizon.

Yeah I'm aware of that. But the distance between the 650D and the 700D was the shortest... which is what we're talking about.

[Silverfin]

which build version should I install for the raw?

[rainless]

which build version should I install for the raw?

I'd go with the latest nightly.

[Aborgh]

How do you guys solve the pink dots with the newer MLV format?
I can't get PinkDotRemover to work on my mac with the MLV format

[jimmyD30]

How do you guys solve the pink dots with the newer MLV format?
I can't get PinkDotRemover to work on my mac with the MLV format

Hello, the Pink Dot Issue has nothing to do with the RAW video format (raw or mlv), it has to with the unique focusing system the 650D and a few other canon cameras use known as Hybrid Focusing (uses a combination of contrast and phase-difference, which makes it very fast and accurate, but introduces the pink dots to ML RAW video).

As far as pink dots being embedded in ML RAW video, this will probably never change, as I don't foresee ML devs trying to remove pink dots in-camera for raw video as that wouldn't be considered a unified solution, which is a primary aim for this dev community regarding the ML project (and rightly so IMO).

Don't know what you mean by "can't get it to work". As far as getting the PDR Tool to run, if it's a java based app (which I believe it is), make sure you have Java JRE or SDK installed.

If the app is running, but not actually removing the pink dots, make sure you are using the correct resolution video (I think it only works for 720p, but not 100% sure) and note whether your are shooting 1x or 3x crop mode, there are two separate tools, one for each format. Also there is a Chroma Smoothing app available in which the video resolution and crop mode would be irrelevant, but not sure it works as well as the PDR Tool.

I would strongly suggest reading the entire thread(s) for pink dot removal, as there are a few quirks with each of the apps and you will only discover them after reading the entire thread (however long it is :-)

EDITED: Also see @andy kh response below.

[andy kh]

How do you guys solve the pink dots with the newer MLV format?
I can't get PinkDotRemover to work on my mac with the MLV format

pink dot remover wont work with mlv. first you wil have to convert to raw. or you can use mlvmystic if u want to convert mlv to dng. make sure you check chroma smooth.

[jimmyD30]

pink dot remover wont work with mlv. first you wil have to convert to raw. or you can use mlvmystic if u want to convert mlv to dng. make sure you check chroma smooth.

Thank you for posting additional correct info, I never tried it with MLV 

[Aborgh]

Hello, the Pink Dot Issue has nothing to do with the RAW video format (raw or mlv), it has to with the unique focusing system the 650D and a few other canon cameras use know as Hybrid Focusing (uses a combination of contrast and phase-difference, which makes it very fast and accurate, but introduces the pink dots to ML RAW video).

As far as pink dots being embedded in ML RAW video, this will probably never change, as I don't foresee ML devs trying to remove pink dots in-camera for raw video as that wouldn't be considered a unified solution, which is a primary aim for this dev community regarding the ML project (and rightly so IMO).

Don't know what you mean by "can't get it to work". As far as getting the PDR Tool to run on a Mac, if it's a java based app (which I believe it is), make sure you have Java JRE or SDK installed.

If the app is running, but not actually removing the pink dots, make sure you are using the correct resolution video (I think it only works for 720p, but not 100% sure) and note whether your are shooting 1x or 3x crop mode, there are two separate tools, one for each format. Also there is a Chroma Smoothing app available in which the video resolution and crop mode would be irrelevant, but not sure it works as well as the PDR Tool.

I would strongly suggest reading the entire thread(s) for pink dot removal, as there are a few quirks with each of the apps and you will only discover them after reading the entire thread (however long it is :-)

EDITED: Also see @andy kh response below.

Sorry for the lack of info
I can get PDR to work correctly, it starts and seems to process the pictures, although it does not remove the auto-focus points on the dng's.

I convert MLV to dng and then use PDR but it is not removing the dots. Seems like the tool is not useable anymore...

[Rewind]

I convert MLV to dng and then use PDR but it is not removing the dots. Seems like the tool is not useable anymore...

MLV is not usable on 650D, because it's slower. PDR works fine for resolutions which are the multiples of 4. For better performance use x16, eg 1536x640 for cinemascope.

[Rewind]

Just for comparison:

resolution               MLV_rec time          RAW_rec time
1536 x 642             23 sec
1536 x 640                                            83 sec
1568 x 656                                            32 sec

MLV is for big brothers. 650D feels better with raw_rec.

[andy kh]

mlv is not that bad for 650D. you can shoot@1472 X 616 continous. everybody wants to record audio as well in thier camera especially film makers like me.

[jimmyD30]

Yeah, I like to shoot 720p@24 fps raw and you can't with mlv on the 650D, ergo my less than complete answer to @Aborgh above... Although I can appreciate the mlv sound feature for at least syncing video with external recording and I guess using the in camera audio itself if recorded with external mic, as the internal audio with built-in mic is nothing to speak about other than for syncing to external recording, which is actually highly desired for some run-and-gun type filmmakers who don't always use a clapboard.

I recently upgraded to 5DM2 and so now using MLV

[Rewind]

I'd say journalists wants to record sound in-camera more often than filmmakers. Filmmakers used to have external recorders )) But anyway, in order to PDR work properly, you need 4x resolutions (1536 x 640 or 1568 x 656 works just fine with my modified raw_rec). You may change mlv_rec by yourself and compile, or ask some of the developers to add some resolution choices into the builds.
Another option is obviously update the PDR tool according to res. changes, but again, enough java for me )

[andy kh]

i  use the audio recorded in my camera only for syncing with audio recorded with external recorder or for doing ADR. it saves a lot of time in post production so i feel its important recording audio in camera

[jimmyD30]

How do you guys solve the pink dots with the newer MLV format?
I can't get PinkDotRemover to work on my mac with the MLV format

If I were you I would really keep trying to figure out what's wrong with the PDR Tool not working. I know I had some trouble at first too. I mean even things like some of the app settings you can select were backwards or didn't do anything (like selecting EOS-M didn't work for EOS-M cameras, but the 650D setting did and some video resolutions didn't work as well as others because the focus points are hard coded). And even though some things in the app were a little quirky, development kind of petered off and new versions weren't released with the fixes, we just kind of picked up the work arounds in the threads.

Also, which version are you using? 0.8 was the latest last I checked, but it's tricky to find the download. To help narrow down what's what, I suggest you try shooting RAW (not mlv) at 720p and see how the tool works, that's the scenario which seemed to yield the best results for me. Taking this approach of process of elimination will help us help you. I know it can be aggravating and time consuming, but taking a step-by-step approach with these kinds of things works well, especially in an online help setting.

And take it from a guy that's been developing apps for over 25 yrs, please include ALL relevant info when asking for help, why? Two reasons...

1) We need that info to better help you and it won't take 6 posts to get it (things like Operating System, App Version, Camera Model, Installed ML Version and Settings, Video Details, just to name a few!).

2) Forum folks are tired of reading such posts without this info included and end up not even bothering to reply rather than go through this back and forth info gathering for the dozenth time.

I'm not trying to knock you, you're a filmmaker, not a software developer, I recognize that, just trying to advise you on how to get better help in resolving your dilemma

[andy kh]

i don have any problem with PDR
all pink dots are remove very well. this is my first mlv raw video shot wit 650D. this video was made just to see how PDR n audio works..

[jimmyD30]

i don have any problem with PDR
all pink dots are remove very well. this is my first mlv raw video shot wit 650D. this video was made just to see how PDR n audio works..

Sorry @andy kh, my response was meant for @Aborgh, I'll update my previous post

EDITED: By the way, video looks great!

[visata]

I have a quick question, is this normal that all of my recorded raw videos are stretched? Can I fix that via magic lantern settings? Should I pick different resolution, aspect ratio?