Author Topic: 650D/T4i Raw Video  (Read 270718 times)

PeteTomov

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650D/T4i Raw Video
« on: May 28, 2013, 12:01:19 AM »
Update by RenatoPhoto:
To install ML on 650D follow the original thread here:
Canon 650D/T4i 1.0.4 [Status: Alpha]
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7473.msg63845#msg63845

Use this thread to discuss RAW Video on 650D

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I was just wondering if you, guys, think that something close to 1920x720 recording might be possible on the 650D / 700D with their SDXC support, when and if they get the RAW firmware .

Viente

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2013, 12:34:30 AM »
I'd like to know too  :) especially for 700d, if its UHS-I compatible and support full 90 mbps speed it might be more interesting with continuous autofocus feature compared to 50d...

I can't decide wether to sell my 600d and get 700d or keep 600d and buy 50d as well...

1%

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2013, 12:47:57 AM »
600D + 50D sounds like a winner. One w/ H264 + audio, other with Raw.

Viente

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2013, 12:57:13 AM »
Thanks for tip! I'm keen on this solution as well...

nanomad

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2013, 02:38:42 PM »
Forget the 650D, it can only do 1280x560 pixels at 24p
EOS 1100D | EOS 650 (No, I didn't forget the D) | Ye Olde Canon EF Lenses ('87): 50 f/1.8 - 28 f/2.8 - 70-210 f/4 | EF-S 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 | Metz 36 AF-5

qsara

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2013, 04:22:20 PM »
I'd like to know too  :) especially for 700d, if its UHS-I compatible and support full 90 mbps speed it might be more interesting with continuous autofocus feature compared to 50d...

I can't decide wether to sell my 600d and get 700d or keep 600d and buy 50d as well...

it can not handle 90MB/s, I've read the spec sheet of SD controller, you can get max 50MB/s on EOS M, 650D & 700D.

CFP

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2013, 04:39:29 PM »
600D + 50D sounds like a winner.
600D + 50D = 650D? ;D

(Just a really poor joke ... couldn't resist :D)

Well. Like qsara said: The 650D and 700D should be too slow to handle 1920 X 720 14-bit raw video at 24 frames per second. This would require 55 Megabyte/s write speed, but it doesn't look like these cameras will be able to get that. Especially since the max. LiveView resolution should be 1734 X 1156 like on the 60D/600D/550D ;D

So even if the cards could handle 1920 width, it wouldn't be possible.

At the moment the 50D looks like the best option for "cheap" raw recording. Maybe the 70D will have a CF card slot again. That would be amazing.

nanomad

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2013, 05:03:55 PM »
it can not handle 90MB/s, I've read the spec sheet of SD controller, you can get max 50MB/s on EOS M, 650D & 700D.

Does the 700D share the same controller as the 650D? Where did you get that info?
EOS 1100D | EOS 650 (No, I didn't forget the D) | Ye Olde Canon EF Lenses ('87): 50 f/1.8 - 28 f/2.8 - 70-210 f/4 | EF-S 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 | Metz 36 AF-5

qsara

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2013, 07:38:12 PM »
Does the 700D share the same controller as the 650D? Where did you get that info?

on a french facebook page about canon's new cameras, I'll look for a link.

qsara

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2013, 07:39:27 PM »
600D + 50D = 650D? ;D

(Just a really poor joke ... couldn't resist :D)

Well. Like qsara said: The 650D and 700D should be too slow to handle 1920 X 720 14-bit raw video at 24 frames per second. This would require 55 Megabyte/s write speed, but it doesn't look like these cameras will be able to get that. Especially since the max. LiveView resolution should be 1734 X 1156 like on the 60D/600D/550D ;D

So even if the cards could handle 1920 width, it wouldn't be possible.

At the moment the 50D looks like the best option for "cheap" raw recording. Maybe the 70D will have a CF card slot again. That would be amazing.

if the seller accepts, I'll give one of my 550D to exchange with 50D, of course, I'll have to give my cheap 75-300 III too (which is useless lately)

vitos1k

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2013, 04:16:54 PM »
1280x560 is maximum i could get on my 650D with UHS-I card. It seems that controller is limited to 30-40mb/s which is poor
but 1280x560 looks great, even upscaled !

andjarnic

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2013, 09:04:43 AM »
Can the 600D do a continuous 1280x560 for several minutes? Or is it going to be a short burst of a few seconds then stop or have to catch up with buffers?  I also thought the 500-650 were all stuck at 21mbps? Which cameras support the UHS-1 (50mbps?) speeds? I have an SDXC card, only 133X (not sure what that translates into). 1280x560 is pretty good if it can do so continuously in 14-bit RAW.

andjarnic

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2013, 09:11:52 AM »
Did a little looking and it looks like the 600D t3i (and later) support the 100Mhz bus speed (50MBp/s) UHS-1. That's more than 2x the speed of what I was reading about the other day, which said the T2i/3i/4i would be stuck at 21mbp/s speeds thus limited to 960x540. Too bad we can't get a full 1280x720 RAW going! So it looks like on amazon about $60 or so for a 45Mbp/s 64GB UHS-1 SDXC card. I see Sandisk and Lexar cards.. hope those are good enough for this RAW recording?

Roman

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2013, 09:34:05 AM »
600D is not UHS-I compatible though, unfortunately. I think the 650D is... But it may have/does have other bottle necks preventing it from writing that fast.

I've got a 95mb/s Sandisk 16gb card, that bangs on the 20-21mb/s limit with my 600D.

Vs 50-70mb/s that I get with the 50D & CF card so far...

andjarnic

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2013, 11:52:32 PM »
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3140278

This is what I read (and another thread can't find it now) that seemed to me that the T3i would support the 45mb/s UHS-1. If the max is 21Mb/s then we're not going to do no better than a very low detailed 960x540, which is 1/4 HD. I would think if this is the best resolution we can do, using HDMI out uncompressed to my Shuttle 2 at 1620x1080 would result in better quality. It's not RAW, but it's almost 4x the detail.

I gotta ask, I know RAW stores various meta info, and it does give you some advantages in post, but is the quality of uncompressed RAW vs uncompressed HDMI out that much superior in post? I seem to be able to do some color correction and such with H.264, I would think that even without the RAW info, the uncompressed video out of HDMI out would be "close" to as good, and with almost 4x more detail due to resolution, I would then think it would be even better.


Roman

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2013, 02:43:12 AM »
Here's the thing though... the 'real' resolution from H264 isnt 4x as much or probably even twice as much, or less.

I cant remember the exact resolutions, but it takes the original raw data from the sensor, then creates a downscaled raw image (presumably the raw file we're poaching) then squashes it down to a resolution of approximately 1000 lines across, and then stretches it back out to 1920x1080 and encodes it in h264. As best I know more or less the same applies when recording to an external device, the footage has already been through this process of getting mashed around before it makes it out of the HDMI port.

When people dont want to upsample from a smaller clip because they'd rather not lose resolution... They arent necessarily getting any more resolution from a full sized 1080p 'Canon' shot anyway. But they are definitely getting worse colours/highlights etc.

CFP

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2013, 11:09:30 AM »
I cant remember the exact resolutions, but it takes the original raw data from the sensor
It was 1732 X 974. Canon rezises that a few times, applies some chroma subsampling, applies some bad sharpen and noise reduction algorithms and finally compress it using the H.264 codec. :( They really know how to screw up an image ;D

That's why even 0.5 Megapixel RAW videos are looking sharper than Canon's default H.264 videos, although they have really heavy aliasing.

And it's true that the EOS 600D/Rebel T3i is compatible with SDHC and SDXC cards but it can't use their write speeds. The SD-controller is limited to 21.3 Megabyte/s write speed. If the 650D and 700D have a write speed limit of ~ 40 Megabyte/s they'll probably be able to record 1280 X 720 (Requires 37 Megabyte/s write speed at 24 frames/second) wich is 2 times the resolution of what the 600D can get! Don't complain about that.

Still, the 50D can record 1590 X 890 at 24 frames/second and has a really lovely look. And it can use the full width of its sensor so you don't get higher crop factors than 1.6. If audio and flipscreen aren't needed, a 50D might be the best option for RAW videos for less than 1000 €. I'm curious to see how well it compares to the BMPCC ...


riccardocovino

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2013, 11:46:55 AM »
If (and it's a big "if") we'll have 12 or 10 bit raw recording true, than bitrates shrink a lot and 650/700D become best options, giving swivel screen, audio and potentially 1734 X 1156 raw video feed.

Only 5DMIII could beat them in this scenario.
BMCC - 50D - D5200 - Nex5N

Aborgh

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2013, 08:31:07 PM »
If (and it's a big "if") we'll have 12 or 10 bit raw recording true, than bitrates shrink a lot and 650/700D become best options, giving swivel screen, audio and potentially 1734 X 1156 raw video feed.

Only 5DMIII could beat them in this scenario.

Hoping for this :D
Cameras: Canon EOS 650D and Canon 50 (the old one) Lenses: 18-55mm kit lens , Canon 50mm , Sigma 18-105mm

CFP

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2013, 08:42:52 PM »
Even if we'll get 12 / 10 / 8 bit compression, 1728 X 960 would only be possible with 8-bit. And that would probably kill the dynamic range.
In 10-bit it would require 47 Megabyte/s write speed. That's simply to much for our tiny Rebel cameras :(

The 50D can actually record 1592 X 1062 14-bit RAW videos already. Once the developers find a way to increase the write speed from the current 60 Megabyte/s to the maximal possible 91 Megabyte/s the 50D could even record 1920 X 1080 14-bit in crop mode.

Since the audio on the Rebels isn't really great anyway I would say get a 50D or a BMPCC if you're searching for a cheap RAW camera.

But I am really hoping that Canon equips the 70D with a CF card slot again. Then it would be able to handle 1728 X 960 14-bit raw videos or maybe even higher resolutions.

Or maybe the developers can find a way to access the lossless huffman compression that is used to compress the usual CR2 RAW stills.
That would save between 10% - 50% file size without loosing quality ...

vicnaum

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2013, 09:36:58 AM »
So what? No one tried RAW on 650D?
Youtube has a lot of sample raw videos, and here I can't find any, even can't find an official 650D raw thread (except this one)...

breaker

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2013, 11:46:32 AM »
It have been tryed, and I have tried it myself. But the main bug is that the contrast-focuspoints is showing up on the pictures. You'll find discussions and examples in the main 650D Alpha thread: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6320.0
EOS 7D | EOS 650D | Sigma 30mm f/1.4 | Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 | Canon EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 STM | 50D RAW Monster :-D

bzhwindtalker

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2013, 02:44:36 PM »
The 50D can actually record 1592 X 1062 14-bit RAW videos already. Once the developers find a way to increase the write speed from the current 60 Megabyte/s to the maximal possible 91 Megabyte/s the 50D could even record 1920 X 1080 14-bit in crop mode.
They unlocked 70mbs recentely, I took some crop footage at 2000*824 yesterday. Havig this crop mode is really nice, it means you can sell all your telephoto ;) and unlike the blackmagic pocket cinema camera you can still have wide FOV at almost 1600px, wich looks really really sharp compared to old H264. I sold my 550D for a 50D and I'm really happy of the switch!
50D, Komputarbay 1000x 32gb, Tokina at-x 24-40, Centon 50f1.7, 55-250 IS II, zoom H1

spider

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2013, 11:32:25 PM »
So what? No one tried RAW on 650D?
Youtube has a lot of sample raw videos, and here I can't find any, even can't find an official 650D raw thread (except this one)...
I tried, but it is to much work for 500 small frames with artifacts

midnite

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Re: RAW on 650D / 700D?
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2013, 11:50:35 AM »
Please find a way to record at least 720p raw. i just saw how good raw videos look like and my jaw dropped on the floor. (i'm a newb 650d user)

i've read it up there 650d/700d has 50mb/s writing speed so it should be possible to have 720p raw :|

Please make it happen, beg ya. :'(