Author Topic: 50D Raw video  (Read 680184 times)

SleeperNinja

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3875 on: October 30, 2013, 01:22:11 PM »
Because there is no 720p mode on the 50D.
Not even a video mode (hinting aside)! It's nice to have accomplished SOMETHING, and 1080p is pretty impressive, all things considered.  8)

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3876 on: October 30, 2013, 01:48:52 PM »
Because there is no 720p mode on the 50D.

Is that right?  I thought the problem is the cameras just won't write to the LV faster than 30 fps and there is no way for the devs to force it.  As far as I know, you can choose any res on the 50D that the sensor will allow, like 1280x720

NedB

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3877 on: October 30, 2013, 02:19:55 PM »
@maxotics: I think what Andy600 meant is not that the resolution 1280x720 can't be recorded, but that there is no 720p mode (i.e., no Canon-firmware-selectable mode that, instead of recording 1080p@25/30fps, records 720p@50/60fps). Selecting this mode in the Canon firmware, on cameras which have it, like the 550d (the only camera I own), and, I believe, all newer cameras, is the only thing which allows LV to be updated at the faster frame rate. Since ML raw is nothing other than "captured" LV video, the 50D cannot do the faster frame rates. At present, there is no obvious path to 48/50/60fps on the 50D. Devs and admins, please feel free to comment if I am incorrect! Cheers!
550D - Kit Lens | EF 50mm f/1.8 | Zacuto Z-Finder Pro 2.5x | SanDisk ExtremePro 95mb/s | Tascam DR-100MkII

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3878 on: October 30, 2013, 03:17:08 PM »
Certainly, Andy may know a thing or two ;)  We all want to be careful when posting something that it won't be mis-understood by a future reader.  All of us fall into this ML-shorthand which can easily be misunderstood by people new to this. 

For example, we all know, there is no built-in ANYp on the 50D

menoc

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3879 on: October 30, 2013, 04:31:15 PM »
Because there is no 720p mode on the 50D.

Yes. But theoretically, the CF controller is capable of 60fps - given a fast enough card. If so, then the only wall is the firmware. Right?

Heldico

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3880 on: October 30, 2013, 04:55:02 PM »
Any news for the Mosaic Engineering's VAF for 50D ? The 70D version is already available on their website ...

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3881 on: October 30, 2013, 05:01:09 PM »
Yes. But theoretically, the CF controller is capable of 60fps - given a fast enough card. If so, then the only wall is the firmware. Right?

That's like saying the only wall preventing one's Dodge Neon from going 200mph is the clutch-box ;) 

Every camera's sensor and the chip that reads data from it, has a bandwidth (horsepower) limitation.  Canon isn't purposely trying to limit.  They made the best compromise for fuel consumption (battery) and heat (cooling).   The jello effect, as far as I know, is just how close they cut the corner on what they can do.  As it is, they're not able to dump a whole image in 24 fps, which is why you get the jello effect (the top part of the frame lagging the bottom part).

It is a firmware hack that allows ML to get all the horsepower from the sensor, which was possible NOT because the cameras IO became faster, but because CARDs got faster and the card adapter was able to handle it.  I don't see a similar bottleneck between the camera's sensor AND the card writing . That's internal.  In other words they'd have to go swap out electronics in the camera to boost FPS speed.  The devs would know more than me.  But that's my understanding. 




menoc

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3882 on: October 30, 2013, 05:10:57 PM »
That's like saying the only wall preventing one's Dodge Neon from going 200mph is the clutch-box ;) 

Every camera's sensor and the chip that reads data from it, has a bandwidth (horsepower) limitation.  Canon isn't purposely trying to limit.  They made the best compromise for fuel consumption (battery) and heat (cooling).   The jello effect, as far as I know, is just how close they cut the corner on what they can do.  As it is, they're not able to dump a whole image in 24 fps, which is why you get the jello effect (the top part of the frame lagging the bottom part).

It is a firmware hack that allows ML to get all the horsepower from the sensor, which was possible NOT because the cameras IO became faster, but because CARDs got faster and the card adapter was able to handle it.  I don't see a similar bottleneck between the camera's sensor AND the card writing . That's internal.  In other words they'd have to go swap out electronics in the camera to boost FPS speed.  The devs would know more than me.  But that's my understanding.

Actually, ML IS NOT a firmware hack. A firmware hack involves modifying the firmware itself - which ML does not. The other point is that the firmware, if I'm not mistaken, is what controls what mode (720/1080) the camera works in. Therefore, the wall would be the firmware, not the hardware. The speed is there, even if you'd be capturing only 30-60 seconds of 60fps video.

If what you say is right then will get 60fps when 2000x cards come out.

Edit: Actually current cards are capable enough as proven by the 5DMIII . . . .


maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3883 on: October 30, 2013, 05:24:09 PM »
Actually, ML IS NOT a firmware hack. A firmware hack involves modifying the firmware itself - which ML does not.

Yes and no.  I didn't say ML is changing the firmware.  I fully recognize that it uses the "firmware update" hook to load additional firmware into the camera, though calling it firmware, may be a misnomer.

Are you thinking about what I'm saying?  Forget the card writer for a second.  If you could attach any IO device to the chip that reads data from the sensor what is the maximum frames per second you think it can output, and at what resolution?

If you think it can do 60 frames per second, where is the evidence?  I'm not trying to be obnoxious.   From my readings of other technical people the devs are already capturing the maximum amount.  When they have gotten performance improvements it has been by reducing the load their code puts on the cameras processing.

menoc

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3884 on: October 30, 2013, 05:35:59 PM »
Yes and no.  I didn't say ML is changing the firmware.  I fully recognize that it uses the "firmware update" hook to load additional firmware into the camera, though calling it firmware, may be a misnomer.

Are you thinking about what I'm saying?  Forget the card writer for a second.  If you could attach any IO device to the chip that reads data from the sensor what is the maximum frames per second you think it can output, and at what resolution?

If you think it can do 60 frames per second, where is the evidence?  I'm not trying to be obnoxious.   From my readings of other technical people the devs are already capturing the maximum amount.  When they have gotten performance improvements it has been by reducing the load their code puts on the cameras processing.

Well I have followed the development from the beginning. From what I understand the sensor is capable - I could be wrong - but in order to do this, there has to be code in canon's firmware that enables 720p mode then ML devs enable it with ML code. Without the code you can't do it because there is not enough knowledge about the internal workings of the camera. Just to accentuate my point, remember when devs swore to their graves that RAW wold never happen for the 50D?

For what I can see the 50D and the 5DMII were clones except for the sensor size and audio capabilities. Devs could probably clear this up if I'm wrong but I believe that 720p mode is a function of software not hardware.

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3885 on: October 30, 2013, 05:39:04 PM »
I think whats lacking on 50D is video modes in general. There is only one and its a way earlier implementation. If canon updated to a more modern code base  then we'd have 60fps. Hardware seems capable but software is not there.

ML is like a program running at start, similar to grub, etc that runs the canon UI and a concurrent ML UI.


maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3886 on: October 30, 2013, 05:43:50 PM »
For what I can see the 50D and the 5DMII were clones except for the sensor size and audio capabilities. Devs could probably clear this up if I'm wrong but I believe that 720p mode is a function of software not hardware.

Would be a game changer is this is true.  I'm not saying it might not be.  If there's anywhere I'd LOVE to be wrong :)  The biggest handicap these cameras have, in my view, is the line skipping solution to dealing with what is essentially a high resolution readout that must be downsized to 1920x1080, say.  I believe the 5D3 uses new chips that sample by pixel, not line, which is why there is little moire in those cameras.  If the devs could do the same with the 50d and other cameras THAT WOULD CERTAINLY BE SOMETHING!  My 2 cents is the sensors have not been improving much in the past few years, but Canon has been beefing up the signal processing chips.  I'm as much in the dark as you ;)

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3887 on: October 30, 2013, 05:45:19 PM »
ML is like a program running at start, similar to grub

1%, you are the Yogi Berra of Magic Lantern :)

menoc

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3888 on: October 30, 2013, 05:45:58 PM »
I think whats lacking on 50D is video modes in general. There is only one and its a way earlier implementation. If canon updated to a more modern code base  then we'd have 60fps. Hardware seems capable but software is not there.

ML is like a program running at start, similar to grub, etc that runs the canon UI and a concurrent ML UI.

That's what I'm saying. And I think we should use the right terms  - ML is "software add-on" not "Firmware".

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3889 on: October 30, 2013, 05:46:17 PM »
Nope, 5DIII just has a good filter to block the aliasing.

To get 50D into the "normal" camera realm you'd need the source for 5DII and 50D then combine them into a franken firmware. Ideally canon should have released a 60fps update when they did the 5DII firmware but they lazed out and didn't. Now its EOL and I doubt they will ever touch it.

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3890 on: October 30, 2013, 05:46:57 PM »
I think whats lacking on 50D is video modes in general. There is only one and its a way earlier implementation. If canon updated to a more modern code base  then we'd have 60fps. Hardware seems capable but software is not there.

What is the connection, is there any, between rolling shutter and frames per second? I would think if you could do true 60fps you could eliminate jello at 30fps?

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3891 on: October 30, 2013, 05:47:49 PM »
That's what I'm saying. And I think we should use the right terms  - ML is "software add-on" not "Firmware".

Agreed, I will be more careful in all my posts.

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3892 on: October 30, 2013, 05:48:41 PM »
Nope, 5DIII just has a good filter to block the aliasing.

Not to question you, but do you know that as a fact?

menoc

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3893 on: October 30, 2013, 05:50:31 PM »
Would be a game changer is this is true.  I'm not saying it might not be.  If there's anywhere I'd LOVE to be wrong :)  The biggest handicap these cameras have, in my view, is the line skipping solution to dealing with what is essentially a high resolution readout that must be downsized to 1920x1080, say.  I believe the 5D3 uses new chips that sample by pixel, not line, which is why there is little moire in those cameras.  If the devs could do the same with the 50d and other cameras THAT WOULD CERTAINLY BE SOMETHING!  My 2 cents is the sensors have not been improving much in the past few years, but Canon has been beefing up the signal processing chips.  I'm as much in the dark as you ;)

I give the Devs another year before they trip on their own words again about video modes!   ;)

menoc

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3894 on: October 30, 2013, 06:16:51 PM »
Not to question you, but do you know that as a fact?

Yes. in fact the 5DMIII has a built in filter which BTW, you can remove if you're brave enough . . . Check out James Miller's post on Vimeo:



a1ex

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3895 on: October 30, 2013, 06:19:10 PM »
Please show some resolution charts to prove it.

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3896 on: October 30, 2013, 06:22:52 PM »
I would think that any footage with the filter removed, if it IS the way the 5D3 has reduced aliasing/moire would show tons of it.  To me it looks like one of the commentators is right, the filter is more about IR, or something else.  Am I missing something?  Seems this video proves exactly the opposite, that Canon is using electronics to deal with aliasing issues in the 5D3 (that it didn't do in all cameras previous)

Even Mosaic says take their filter out before doing serious photography.

goldenchild9to5

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3897 on: October 30, 2013, 06:32:16 PM »
Which version of Tragic Lantern did you use? I was using the latest version and it gave me all sorts of issues on a music video shoot that I had never experienced in my previous test, such as the raw video module disappearing and the modules screen disappearing all together. I had to remove the battery in order to reload the raw module. This happened a few times.
 

I believe I'm using Tragic 6, or Tragic 7 try them both results are phenomenal..

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3898 on: October 30, 2013, 06:34:12 PM »
maybe they designed the filter to work with photography too, obviously the vaf filter is stronger and different. when the 5DIII was being reviewed it was mentioned. I don't see anything in the FW that would indicate that anything has changed in regards to how video modes work.

Also where is the magical processing on the 6D which is almost identical to 5DIII firmware and missing the filter. I also don't see it mentioned anywhere from canon itself.


PhilK

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3899 on: October 30, 2013, 06:43:28 PM »
Any news for the Mosaic Engineering's VAF for 50D ? The 70D version is already available on their website ...

Bump as I'm interested as well.