Author Topic: 50D Raw video  (Read 651300 times)

tmte

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3625 on: October 07, 2013, 12:09:41 AM »
Hey guys! Just joined to forum to say thanks to the guys who've been working so hard on the hacks. The developments are honestly amazing, I just sold me t3i and will be scooping up a 50d with some MF glass pretty soon.  :)

I downloaded a 50d movie earlier called "kiss" off vimeo and played around with the CC to see what I could do. Even after compression the flexibility is nuts.
Here's the original






araucaria

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3626 on: October 07, 2013, 12:17:58 AM »
Hey guys! Just joined to forum to say thanks to the guys who've been working so hard on the hacks. The developments are honestly amazing, I just sold me t3i and will be scooping up a 50d with some MF glass pretty soon.  :)

I downloaded a 50d movie earlier called "kiss" off vimeo and played around with the CC to see what I could do. Even after compression the flexibility is nuts.
Here's the original https://vimeo.com/67351221



I actually think that has more to do with the weather the video was shot (plus the not over graded footage). If you are fine with that kind of grading you could go with a panasonic gh2 or g6 and save yourself a lot of trouble.

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3627 on: October 07, 2013, 12:57:31 AM »
@araucaria  Please don't take this the wrong way.  I am not knocking the GH2, GH3 or any other consumer H.264 video camera.  I have a couple.  For many types of situations they are perfect. 

However, there are many people who have only shot with a GH2 and don't understand how RAW video is different, much different.  Each frame of the 50D is say 1728x972, or 1,679,616 pixels.  Each pixel (red, green or blue) has a value of 256, 1 byte.  There are 24 frames a second, or 40 megabytes per second.  That is all real color information. 

Even when the GH2 is running the highest bitrate hack, it's at 175Mbits, that's BITs not BYTES.  In bytes that 175/8 or 22 Megabytes.

How can a camera that saves 22 megabytes of color data per second match a 40 megabyte camera?  There are many people that would argue that those numbers are distorted (the 50D can actually go quite higher).  In any case, no one would question the dynamic range difference between the cameras.

Again, I'm not saying one can't shoot great video with the GH2.  Many have.  But it's dis-information to say one can get the same  dynamic range with a GH2 over a 50D.  You can't grade in color data that just isn't there.  This is obvious to anyone who has shot both. 

Again, not saying your advice, in general, isn't good.  It may be the best advice for that reader. 


tmte

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3628 on: October 07, 2013, 01:26:25 AM »

I actually think that has more to do with the weather the video was shot (plus the not over graded footage). If you are fine with that kind of grading you could go with a panasonic gh2 or g6 and save yourself a lot of trouble.

I understand that what I did specifically only worked because of the overcast and subjects, but I still thought it was fine. :P I've worked with RAW and the GH2 before and I don't think it'll be too bad + a 50D can be had for $300 less than a GH2, which is also nice.

TrulyRAW

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3629 on: October 07, 2013, 01:31:39 AM »
In RAW, each pixel has a value of 16384. Not 256

araucaria

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3630 on: October 07, 2013, 01:46:38 AM »
@araucaria  Please don't take this the wrong way.  I am not knocking the GH2, GH3 or any other consumer H.264 video camera.  I have a couple.  For many types of situations they are perfect. 

However, there are many people who have only shot with a GH2 and don't understand how RAW video is different, much different.  Each frame of the 50D is say 1728x972, or 1,679,616 pixels.  Each pixel (red, green or blue) has a value of 256, 1 byte.  There are 24 frames a second, or 40 megabytes per second.  That is all real color information. 

Even when the GH2 is running the highest bitrate hack, it's at 175Mbits, that's BITs not BYTES.  In bytes that 175/8 or 22 Megabytes.

How can a camera that saves 22 megabytes of color data per second match a 40 megabyte camera?  There are many people that would argue that those numbers are distorted (the 50D can actually go quite higher).  In any case, no one would question the dynamic range difference between the cameras.

Again, I'm not saying one can't shoot great video with the GH2.  Many have.  But it's dis-information to say one can get the same  dynamic range with a GH2 over a 50D.  You can't grade in color data that just isn't there.  This is obvious to anyone who has shot both. 

Again, not saying your advice, in general, isn't good.  It may be the best advice for that reader.

Ehm, I think it was pretty clear we were talking about compressed footage downloaded from vimeo... Btw, where do the 150 pixels for 1728x972 come from? Anyway, the GH2 is better in everything but color depth and dynamic range (but only because you loose a lot when compressing) when compared to the 50d in raw mode. The gh2 is definitely sharper and has no moire.

But hey, I don't have a gh2 but I do have a 50D because I like the color depth and the lack of compression, and specially because I hate the way you have to grade non raw stuff.

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But it's dis-information to say one can get the same  dynamic range with a GH2 over a 50D
Where is this coming from?

1%

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3631 on: October 07, 2013, 02:13:35 AM »
Ha ha, yea, don't compare with H264 anything... should be 50D vs ari, red, bmcc, etc.. maybe some 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 broadcast cams if you really wanna check vs compressed formats.


D.L. Watson

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3632 on: October 07, 2013, 02:40:57 AM »
Ha ha, yea, don't compare with H264 anything... should be 50D vs ari, red, bmcc, etc.. maybe some 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 broadcast cams if you really wanna check vs compressed formats.

Honestly, this GH3 footage I shot looks better in sharpness and dynamic range than anything I've gotten out of my RAW enabled 50D.


And it only took up 16 gigs of space rather than 200 gigs - and I didn't have to manually change white-balance for every shot - and I didn't have to worry about the camera randomly shutting off, frames becoming corrupted, or frame guess in 5X crop mode.

See my portfolio of work at www.dlwatson.net

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3633 on: October 07, 2013, 02:53:15 AM »
Honestly, this GH3 footage I shot looks better in sharpness and dynamic range than anything I've gotten out of my RAW enabled 50D.

First D.L., very nice video.  What I'm pointing out is a technical fact, not an aesthetic judgment.  I agree, shooting RAW is difficult and time consuming and often, just NOT worth it.  But a scene in that video would be a case in point, about the difference in dynamic range between a GH3 and 50D RAW



I'm virtually certain that a 50D shooting raw would show a lot of detail under that counter.  Again, not saying the video isn't perfect. 

@TrulyRAW, as for a pixel having value of 0 to 255, instead of 16384.  I'm talking about before de-bayering which is what the camera records to RAW in, either red, green or blue values.

@araucaria  I did not mean to imply you were spreading dis-information.  Sorry if it came across the way.

D.L. Watson

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3634 on: October 07, 2013, 03:10:29 AM »
First D.L., very nice video.  What I'm pointing out is a technical fact, not an aesthetic judgment.  I agree, shooting RAW is difficult and time consuming and often, just NOT worth it.  But a scene in that video would be a case in point, about the difference in dynamic range between a GH3 and 50D RAW

I understand technically RAW is better in every way. And yes, I would agree that in some circumstances, RAW does have it's Pros.

And I don't want to beat a dead horse, but the GH3 still holds a lot of information in the shadows. I just pulled this from the ungraded footage. It was my choice when I graded to put the folks in silhouette because I don't have neat video (yet). I'm fairly certain if I put this though neat video, this would be a totally usable shot - in fact - if I added grain to the highlights it could be usable now.



But technically, yes - much more color and luminance information is available in the 50D.

 

See my portfolio of work at www.dlwatson.net

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3635 on: October 07, 2013, 03:28:23 AM »
D.L. I just watched a bunch of your video and I'm like "Does he watch his own stuff?" :)  When you shot the graveyard with the GH3 it was cloudy (which, of course, is favorable conditions); when you shot it with the 50D it was sunny.  Difficult to compare them. 

I think what you're saying, and I totally agree, is that the dynamic range is often not worth the 10-times time, money, effort, etc.  If you don't need high dynamic range than you're be crazy to shoot RAW, with any camera!  Panasonic is the master of consumer video.  Even my lowly GF3 with a $30 c-mount TV lens kicks a__, far as I'm concerned.

However, the film about the mechanic, shown in a movie theater, would look fantastic.  If shot on GH3, I think the contrast would dilute the emotional feel of the piece.  Just my 2-cents.

98% of all the music I love was recording on equipment lower-tech than my phone.  I'm a complete old-movie nut.  I really couldn't care, when I'm the one wanting to be entertained.

What I love about RAW is that it is close to the film look.  I'm good with losing sharpness and picking up noise.  Just me. 

Your talent deserves a 5D3.  If only the world were fair ;)

D.L. Watson

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3636 on: October 07, 2013, 03:54:00 AM »
However, the film about the mechanic, shown in a movie theater, would look fantastic.  If shot on GH3, I think the contrast would dilute the emotional feel of the piece.  Just my 2-cents.

Thanks for watching! I guess I should post it here:

"DICHOTOMY" 50D MAGIC LANTERN SHORT FILM


After being pointlessly confronted, a quiet mechanic must contend with his darker, more sinister self.

I'm probably going to keep my 50D and stay with my GH3 for now until Magic Lantern comes out with compressed RAW or something that will write metadata for white-balance settings - etc. If I invested into RAW for an extra stop and half of latitude and post-white balance - I wouldn't have enough money to make my little indie shorts.

Thanks for watching!
See my portfolio of work at www.dlwatson.net

1%

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3637 on: October 07, 2013, 05:18:34 AM »
Quote
What I'm pointing out is a technical fact, not an aesthetic judgment.  I agree, shooting RAW is difficult and time consuming and often, just NOT worth it.

This. If comparing H264, 50D sucks straight up. 50D, ~400-500 USD 2008, GH3 2012,  $1k? Nobody has been comparing chroma key yet.... where you want short clips and lots of color data. I wouldn't want to shoot weddings or long interviews with raw though...

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something that will write metadata for white-balance settings

MLV would do that. But the rewrite which was supposed to add speed and hopefully no more dead frames isn't all done.

LEVISDAVIS

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3638 on: October 07, 2013, 10:52:59 AM »
No new news from Mosaic Engineering. Left a voice message last Friday the 4th offering my assistance and/or just to simply touch base and find out about the progress of the filter.

... Been following 50D ML Forum and reading what other users have asked about Mosaic Engineering.

Here is a link to DNGs featuring the VAF and a $10 Promaster UV filter and also no VAF with the same $10 Promaster Filter. Looks like the moire is nearly completely eliminated (95 - 97%).

https://copy.com/hjxaDziN02ae

... The last two Fridays in a row I've left a voice message with Mosaic in an attempt to touch base... Still no new news.
Levi S. Davis

rockfallfilms

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3639 on: October 07, 2013, 11:11:10 AM »
Honestly, this GH3 footage I shot looks better in sharpness and dynamic range than anything I've gotten out of my RAW enabled 50D.


To me, the GH3 looks very video like and if you're getting more dynamic range out of it then I don't think you're exposing the 50D properly.

Quote
If I invested into RAW for an extra stop and half of latitude and post-white balance - I wouldn't have enough money to make my little indie shorts.

That extra dynamic range could be the difference between blowing out the windows or not, definitely worth it in my opinion.

RAW can't be compared to H264, there's no contest. I see my 50D as a mini Red one.

rockfallfilms

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3640 on: October 07, 2013, 11:24:47 AM »
No new news from Mosaic Engineering. Left a voice message last Friday the 4th offering my assistance and/or just to simply touch base and find out about the progress of the filter.

... Been following 50D ML Forum and reading what other users have asked about Mosaic Engineering.

Here is a link to DNGs featuring the VAF and a $10 Promaster UV filter and also no VAF with the same $10 Promaster Filter. Looks like the moire is nearly completely eliminated (95 - 97%).

https://copy.com/hjxaDziN02ae

... The last two Fridays in a row I've left a voice message with Mosaic in an attempt to touch base... Still no new news.

Thanks for chasing it. It looks like they have been working on a BMCC filter so maybe they haven't had time for the 50D one lately. Hopefully they'll get to it soon.

Can you shoot a test on some striped fine detail fabric if you have time?

Cheers


LEVISDAVIS

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3641 on: October 07, 2013, 11:31:33 AM »
Will make time for a test for sure...

Here is a color corrected image from the VAF filter test with the Promaster UV filter in place using Capture 1 trail version to export flat 16-bit Tiff image and then applied Color Correction in AE with Synthetic Aperture to create this look... (Take notice to the detail and the lack of moire! Obviously the color is jumping out in a great way, right?)



Levi S. Davis

bart

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3642 on: October 07, 2013, 11:52:31 AM »
For me the 50D is a specialist tool. I shoot mostly wildlife and landscapes and my GH2 will remain my main camera for most of the shots. The GH2 can handle most situations very well. The 50D comes in at very strong backlight situations. Like straight or near straight into the sun at sunset situations where preserving some extra shadow detail and subtle tones is preferred over total clipped shadows.
I think ML RAW has a couple more stops headroom over GH2 if you follow the ETTR hints and expose just before the histogram shows "over". I compared that to the ML h264 histogram and the RAW ETTR pushes the exposure way beyond the point I would choose in h264 mode. In post (Adobe RAW converter) there are a lot of options to recover what's needed. RAW dual iso video would be nice but RAW and some noise filter are pretty great too.
So for now I grab my 50D only at strong contrast situations in 1080p cropmode, for instance when skies offer interesting cloud formations to preserve. The 1x mode is nice for 720p.

bart

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3643 on: October 07, 2013, 11:56:48 AM »
Will make time for a test for sure...

Here is a color corrected image from the VAF filter test with the Promaster UV filter in place using Capture 1 trail version to export flat 16-bit Tiff image and then applied Color Correction in AE with Synthetic Aperture to create this look... (Take notice to the detail and the lack of moire! Obviously the color is jumping out in a great way, right?)

Strange dimensions. What was the resolution of the original png? Maybe you can share one PNG frame?

LEVISDAVIS

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3644 on: October 07, 2013, 12:01:11 PM »
Yeah... 2046 by 1152 upscaled using DNG in Capture 1 (enables upscaling images upon export)... Should be a 2048 by 1152; however, Capture 1 stated the resolution of 2046 by 1152 even though I applied a 2048 by 1152 dimension. Interestingly, the 2046 number was highlighted in red (almost as if Capture 1 limited the resolution to this number by default).
Levi S. Davis

CFP

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3645 on: October 07, 2013, 02:22:54 PM »
as for a pixel having value of 0 to 255, instead of 16384.  I'm talking about before de-bayering which is what the camera records to RAW in, either red, green or blue values.
I think you've got that wrong. The Canon DSLR record the uncompressed bayer data from the sensor which has a color depth of 14 bit per pixel. Since it's bayer data, you get 50% green, 25% red and 25% blue pixels and each of them has a value of 0 to 16383, even before the debayering. That's also the reason why a raw video with a reslution of 1728 X 972 at 24 frames per second wouldn't be 40 Megabyte/s but 70 Megabyte/s.


maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3646 on: October 07, 2013, 03:16:32 PM »
@TrulyRAW and @CFP, there I go, spreading dis-information myself!  Just when I think I have a handle on this stuff!

That makes sense!  So when ML writes the buffer to the card it's writing each pixel as a 14-bit value?

And does that give something like 14 trillion color combinations?  16k x 16k x 16k?

Thanks!
Max

D.L. Watson

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3647 on: October 07, 2013, 05:49:03 PM »
That extra dynamic range could be the difference between blowing out the windows or not, definitely worth it in my opinion.

Unfortunately, in the case for my 50D short, in order to expose correctly for my subjects, blown out windows is something I had to contend with. While the 50D has more dynamic range, it's not 14 stops.

Even so, the 50D is a great RAW machine.
See my portfolio of work at www.dlwatson.net

rockfallfilms

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3648 on: October 07, 2013, 07:22:46 PM »
Unfortunately, in the case for my 50D short, in order to expose correctly for my subjects, blown out windows is something I had to contend with. While the 50D has more dynamic range, it's not 14 stops.

Even so, the 50D is a great RAW machine.

Oh I see. Did you shoot without lighting indoors then?

oc_masta

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3649 on: October 07, 2013, 07:49:43 PM »
Nothing in the price range of the 50d would perform as well in post production...NOTHING.
You can transform 50d raw video into the most filmic, emotive scene you can imagine. Its just a straight fact, doesn't compare at all to the GH2 or GH3.