50D Raw video

Started by Andy600, May 22, 2013, 03:40:57 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

crash-film

Quote from: pulsar124 on June 25, 2013, 04:23:16 PM
Is it even worth the development effort, to use a small fraction of the 50D sensor (effectively turning 50D into a tiny sensor, consumer level camcorder), RAW or not? (I am talking about zoom RAW recording.) With a tiny sensor, you lose most of the advantages of the DSLR-based video-camera - shallow DoF and great light sensitivity.


of course it is!

in crop mode you get a 1:1 pixel representation. yeah, it is just a pretty tiny fraction of the sensor size. but it´s fine for establishing shots or high detail images.
from a technical point of view there should be no difference in dynamic range or sensitivity. just noise could be a little bit more noticeable.

for your shallow dop needs you can use the non crop resolutions. faces or close ups of organic things without sharp edges work perfectly.
to avoid aliasing in sound recorded with low sampling frequency ( to record a frequency range between 20 hz and 20 khz the sampling frequency has to be 40 khz according to shannon-nyquist)

there´s something called noise shaping. maybe turning the iso levels up to generate a strong random noise pattern could help prevent edge aliasing.
could be a reason why some people report moire reduction after applying noise reduction.

this method can also be used to avoid bending in your web videos: just ad a little amount of noise to your videos.
the encoder (mostly h264) detects the noise as detail and lowers its macroblocking giving smoother gradients in large flat surfaces (skies etc.)


the magical images from the 50D are in my opinion a result of the "low" resolution chip. a 50D with a 10 or 12 MP sensor would give you even better images. the 50D was called a pixel over kill when it was released. if they built in a lower res sensor with bigger sensel size dynamic and low light performance could even be better. but the 50Ds sensor was quite unique at that time. the first one without real spaces between the sensels.
and if i understand the live view down scale line skipping right, there would be less line aliasing as a result of less lines needed to be skipped.

is this correct?

so theoretically the 40D would give better line-aliasing results.
moire can only be solved in cam with an optical low pass filter since the visible moire effect is just a result of the nyquist-shannon theoreme. every image sensor has its high frequency limits (high frequencies meaning small image details).

a lower res chip can be the solution for micro moire.

an ideal cam would have a full frame 35 mm faveon (or 3 chip) style sensor with the exact pixel count you want to shoot and a specially designed LPF.

this is the reason why the 5DIII is so good for video: good LPF and a sensor pixel count that´s ideal for downscaling.

did some tests with the moire reduction in ACR. works pretty good in special cases!

goldenchild9to5

Quote from: GregoryOfManhattan on June 25, 2013, 04:56:15 PM
numbers may change but the frames remain the same.
today's builds include code changes to bitrate calculations - so the numbers may display differently than before.
you can compare performance with past builds by maximum frames under some settings (1920x1080 @23.976) or maximum continuous recording at your favorite aspect ratio.
(for the super speed builds, it's looked to me as if the numbers on screen were less than the required bitrate - e.g. 1920x1080p23.976 should be closer to 83MB/s and the 80point1 build reported around 80.1)

@Rawolution - enjoy 1600 maximum width in regular raw video mode - that is it.

@pinger007, @rommex (and the whole moire gang) - i wouldn't go so far as to say unusable - you have to decide where to use it.  it will present issues in environments with regular patterns and hard thin lines.  for myself, i did some camera tests to see a range of conditions.



included a not great panning city scape to show the moire.
at 25second far left top corner the windows have a crazy multicolor pattern,
the rooftops to the left of the Allianz building show some strange flickering digital artifacts which i think is caused by antennas.
the side of the dark brick building center frame at 35second has very visible moire.
in resolve lite, i tried to separate luma and chroma and to blur the chroma to reduce at least the rainbow portions of the moire pattern.  all these things look worse at full resolution viewing the cinemaDNGs - the silver lining in all the compression to post videos online is that the apparent problems are reduced.

the earlier shots of the trees could have been processed (perhaps by masking the backs of the trees or could i have keyed on the tree bark color?) to keep the dark detail in a very wide dynamic range shot.
(note: uploaded a 444 prores with vimeo compression and somewhere - this vimeo gamma is much darker from what i saw on screen - at my limit for the week of uploads - so cannot be replaced)

looks to me like the 50D image can be sharpened and look very nice on organic natural shots - trees, forest , ocean, etc...
a deep focus city shot is going to require post work to reduce the moire.
basically you need to limit depth of field in a city or room with patterns.

the final shot show crop/ zoom mode at 105mm looking at one world trade center (4.2miles / 6.7km ) and 1 penn plaza (1.3 miles / 2.3 km) distance.

@rommex - you may like a documentary film "crumb" (1994) - it shows an artistic interpretation of telephone and power cables.

Beautiful images.. keep up the great work you turned the 50D into a beast  :D  You used Davinci to process the footage right?

goldenchild9to5

Hey 50D community I had an idea to put together a collaborative project for the 50D, mainly to showcase the power of the camera.  It can also be a learning ground for new comers, and educational platform to share settings, shooting styles, tricks, and most importantly workflows & color grading.  Let me know if it's something you all would be interested in, I think we all have a common goal to get the best possible images out of the 50D and turn it into a movie make machine Cheers..

GOD Bless

arrinkiiii

Quote from: goldenchild9to5 on June 25, 2013, 06:11:26 PM
Hey 50D community I had an idea to put together a collaborative project for the 50D, mainly to showcase the power of the camera.  It can also be a learning ground for new comers, and educational platform to share settings, shooting styles, tricks, and most importantly workflows & color grading.  Let me know if it's something you all would be interested in, I think we all have a common goal to get the best possible images out of the 50D and turn it into a movie make machine Cheers..

GOD Bless

Its a very good idea indeed!!!

goldenchild9to5

Quote from: arrinkiiii on June 25, 2013, 06:21:01 PM
Its a very good idea indeed!!!

Thanks Arrinkiiii for being the first one to show interest I think that it would be a great collaborative platform, and very educational we can never stop learning right..  let's wait and see what the rest of the community thinks about it. 

crash-film

here´s some test footage including nearly almost wide shots. did not check all shots for moire.
but some are corrected via ACR moire reduction.

can´t upload to vimeo atm, so there´s just a 720p youtube version. original resolution is 1536x1056 and much cleaner and sharper.
did some upscale/downscale tricks to reduce line aliasing. pretty subtle. but the dark outlines of the buildings are nearly straight.

lens: canon 28mm 2.8 prime
workflow: as described in my 12 bit workflow post (very slow, but the final product is a robust 32bit exr sequence that renders to every format very fast)

updated to 1080p:

Supermac

Okay so I'm up to 1154 x 864 in 4:3 but can't get the bitrate any higher for continuous shooting. Does this sound right? I'm using a Lexar 800x speed card with todays Gregoryofmanhattan's build. Any help to get me up to 1584 x 1068 would be greatly appreciated.

crash-film

what size is your card supermac?

logen

Heyho boys, just dropping in to say thanks for your awesome work, I've never would have imagined the possibilities lying in a 50D. Seriously, great job so far. I've managed to snag a body for $316, so hopefully I can help out with testing soon. (someone hack the post to teleport packages, the waiting's killing me lol)

Also, for anyone that wants to grab themselves a 50D, I'd advise to check the american and british ebay on a hourly basis, as quite a few bodies pop-up for buy it now under $380. Don't bother with the canadian, german, and austrian one's tho, the prices just skyrocket there (I've got mine from the uk).

On another note, if someone can't use amazon, Komputerbay Ltd is on ebay under the name of "fastflashstore", although the prices are a bit higher there... hope this helps someone.

Supermac

It's only an 8GB card which I'm using as a quick test before forking out for a bigger card. Would this make a difference? Thanks

crash-film

Quote from: Supermac on June 25, 2013, 08:32:46 PM
It's only an 8GB card which I'm using as a quick test before forking out for a bigger card. Would this make a difference? Thanks

yes, it makes a big difference. i tested the 16 GB x800 card and couldn´t get higher writing speeds than 40 MB/s.
changed to komputerbay 32 GB x1000 and now the 80 MB/s are no problem!!

i think the 8 GB card is even slower than the 16 GB. this cards may have a udma7 interface but they are slower on the inside so to speak.

i recommend you buy a komputerbay card. but only the x1000s

Supermac

Quote from: crash-film on June 25, 2013, 08:49:42 PM
yes, it makes a big difference. i tested the 16 GB x800 card and couldn´t get higher writing speeds than 40 MB/s.
changed to komputerbay 32 GB x1000 and now the 80 MB/s are no problem!!

i think the 8 GB card is even slower than the 16 GB. this cards may have a udma7 interface but they are slower on the inside so to speak.

i recommend you buy a komputerbay card. but only the x1000s

Ok cool, I've got a 600x Duracel 32G which might work better for testing purposes. I guess I'll look at the Komputerbay one too. Hopefully I can post some footage if I get anything decent.

briwil



nightvision04

Here's a low light indoor test.

Resolve Addict. ML RAW Addict. Contagious.

CaptainOfObvious

Quote from: nightvision04 on June 26, 2013, 02:01:09 AM
Here's a low light indoor test.



Holy crap I love that grade. Good job on composition too.

What Iso and Lens? Youtube compression can be get blocky with dark scenes but even then I get the feeling the source files look good.

nightvision04

Quote from: CaptainOfObvious on June 26, 2013, 02:55:46 AM
Holy crap I love that grade. Good job on composition too.

What Iso and Lens? Youtube compression can be get blocky with dark scenes but even then I get the feeling the source files look good.

Thanks CaptainOfObvious! I used Canon f1.8 50mm, wide open at an 1600 ISO. In resolve I interpreted my clip exposure at 0.90. The source files are nice and sharp. :)
Resolve Addict. ML RAW Addict. Contagious.

CaptainOfObvious

Quote from: nightvision04 on June 26, 2013, 03:47:05 AM
Thanks CaptainOfObvious! I used Canon f1.8 50mm, wide open at an 1600 ISO. In resolve I interpreted my clip exposure at 0.90. The source files are nice and sharp. :)

Hmm, I dont feel like I get even near that kind of lowlight performance on 1600, any noise reduction going on in resolve?

nightvision04

Quote from: CaptainOfObvious on June 26, 2013, 04:23:52 AM
Hmm, I dont feel like I get even near that kind of lowlight performance on 1600, any noise reduction going on in resolve?
No.
Resolve Addict. ML RAW Addict. Contagious.

flambe

Quick question re lens. I read that using FF Lens on a crop body like the 50d leads to softness in the video. Is this true in anyone's opinion? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm used to filming with dedicated video cams, not DSLR's.

What lens are people using besides the typical primes (30mm, 50mm)?

Also, anyone used a ewa lens like the canon 14mm with RAW?

Any comments would be great!

dsManning

Quote from: nightvision04 on June 26, 2013, 03:47:05 AM
Thanks CaptainOfObvious! I used Canon f1.8 50mm, wide open at an 1600 ISO. In resolve I interpreted my clip exposure at 0.90. The source files are nice and sharp. :)

Best cheap (really cheap) Canon lens for low light.  I've tested against the 1.4 in quite a few settings and really haven't seen that considerable a difference for your price.

Here is another low light video graded in Resolve using the Canon 50mm 1.8  Click 'Show More' in the description to compare to the same clip without BlackMagic settings in Resolve and a few more tweaks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYVq7W7tEh8

(btw, song is not the original. Just picked a freebee off YouTube to make the video more bearable. So ignore a bit of sync if you will)

CFP

Quote from: flambe on June 26, 2013, 04:38:29 AM
I read that using FF Lens on a crop body like the 50d leads to softness in the video.
That is bullshit.

artiswar

Quote from: flambe on June 26, 2013, 04:38:29 AM
Quick question re lens. I read that using FF Lens on a crop body like the 50d leads to softness in the video. Is this true in anyone's opinion? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm used to filming with dedicated video cams, not DSLR's.

What lens are people using besides the typical primes (30mm, 50mm)?

Also, anyone used a ewa lens like the canon 14mm with RAW?

Any comments would be great!

While specific crop sensor lenses will work better on crop sensors, a full frame lens should perform just as well on a crop sensor. Example: Contax Zeiss glass can cover the entirety of a RED Epic's 5k sensor, thus, with the resolution that a 50D can resolve should look stellar.

I'm loving my 11-16 on the 50D.

v1rt

WOW! Just saw this thread. I have a 3 year old Canon 50D with Magic Lantern. However, I don't have this new version. Is the download for the latest ML for Canon 50D only found in the first page? I was thinking there might another download link posted embedded on a different page.

Check out my video which was recorded by Magic Lantern WITHOUT Raw support.



Any help would be greatly appreciated!

You guys are awesome! I've seen some video recordings and it is phenomenal! Awesome work!

CaptainOfObvious

Quote from: dsManning on June 26, 2013, 04:48:39 AM

Here is another low light video graded in Resolve using the Canon 50mm 1.8  Click 'Show More' in the description to compare to the same clip without BlackMagic settings in Resolve and a few more tweaks.


Another nice looking clip, yeah with 1600 I'm getting way more noise perhaps RPP (what i use to process my dngs, correct white balance etc is the culprit. I don't have a nvidia card so I can't use resolve : (