Should I return my 6D for a 5D MK III?

Started by darkstarr, May 22, 2013, 11:10:36 AM

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darkstarr

hello folks,

new member here so first of all big big respect to all the ML team for their great breakthrough with raw!
So basically im in a dilemma here, I just bought a 6D a week ago and have 1 more week before refund period ends.

At this point I know the recent RAW developments are really in an early stage, but whats the future of Raw with the 6D?
Im trying to read all these raw threads but its so hard to keep up

- Will the SD card interface keep it from recording full HD / 2.5k res?
- Will it be possible to eventually record full HD (ish) raw 24p for more than 1min at least? whats the current approx max recording time on the 6d and 5d III that were achieved?
- Any chance of Raw HDMI out at all in the near future? I read a thread stamped as [IMPOSSIBLE]. Could someone elaborate?
- What about line skipping / moire? hardware issue?


I haven't installed the current new port on the 6d yet since its still brand new and I might return it, currently running v2.3 on my old 60D
I'm very tempted to return the 6d and get a 5d III, it is worth it?

your input is needed!
thanks fellas

edwmotion


scrax

the hardware difference is card speed and it's huge, so yes if video are your main interest
I'm using ML2.3 for photography with:
EOS 600DML | EOS 400Dplus | EOS 5D MLbeta5- EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro  - EF-S 17-85mm f4-5.6 IS USM - EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM - 580EXII - OsX, PS, LR, RawTherapee, LightZone -no video experience-

noisyboy

Short answer: if it's for video and if you can afford the mkIII, trade it in. I have the 6D and I love it. For low light shooting there is little that comes close to the performance of the 6D and it's an incredible stills camera but the aliasing and moire are close to unforgiveable in some situations. The mkIII with raw video enabled is increadible. Not only due to fewer visible artifacts but the fact you can use CF cards to record pretty much continuous 1080p. Go for it man :)

kgv5

I have 6D and I had similar thoughts but for me the price difference between 6D and 5D3 is huge. I think we can't straightly compare this 2 cameras because "RAW ready" 6D with an SD card is about 1500-1600$. 5D3 with CF card fast enough for 1080p RAW would be around 3500-4000$ at least. So for now they are like from completely different segments.
1% is making impossible things to improve RAW feature in 6D, now 1504x640 is completely usable and continous.
Such image looks far more superior to h264, IMO it is not so much different from 1920x800 - ok, maybe a little bit less detail and sharpness (with upscale about 1.3x) but the same colours and dynamic range. With this res you can record ~25 minutes of footage on 64GB card.

So, I am gonna stay with my 6D. I am very satisfied and waiting for upcoming improvements. When moire and aliasing becomes totally unbearable for me I will just buy VAF-6D for 365$. For 4000$ I would consider buying SSD equipped BMCC.


ML 1080p RAW feature is great for someone who already owns 5D3. If I would like to shoot RAW movies (and no stills) with budget around 4000$ I would really really consider BMCC mainly because of SSD and Prores out of the box. If someone does have 5D3 now  - well, he doesn't have to think about switching to BMCC anymore.
www.pilotmovies.pl   5D Mark III, 6D, 550D

Habitat


1%

6D is 5d3 JR. The extra $$$ can go to better lenses... sensor performance is slightly better on 6D. If you're into photos and want to save some money get a 6D...  If you want the dual cards and slightly less moire + headphone monitoring now and have ~$2000 burning a hole in your pocket....

darkstarr

thanks everyone for the replies!

yes I love the 6D so far, I didnt do any real video with it yet out in the field only a wedding photoshoot and that sensor is gold!
low noise on high iso was one of the main reason i got the 6d
Im definitely thinking about going to 5d3, and no i cant really afford it ill have to dig into some savings lol

the price difference for the upgrade will be 1100$ for a grey market 5d3


Quote from: noisyboy on May 22, 2013, 11:46:17 AM
it's an incredible stills camera but the aliasing and moire are close to unforgiveable in some situations. The mkIII with raw video enabled is increadible. Not only due to fewer visible artifacts but the fact you can use CF cards to record pretty much continuous 1080p. Go for it man :)

do you have any footage uploaded i can check out noisyboy? ps: with the 6d you'll have to change your name haha!

Quote from: kgv5 on May 22, 2013, 12:07:05 PM
With this res you can record ~25 minutes of footage on 64GB card.

wow! really?? what the, i thought i read all the last pages of the 6d dev kit thread!
so far you can achieve about 25mins of continuous footage at that resolution?

so whats the max achievable resolution / recording time right now on 5d3?

Quote from: 1% on May 22, 2013, 03:42:42 PM
6D is 5d3 JR. The extra $$$ can go to better lenses... sensor performance is slightly better on 6D. If you're into photos and want to save some money get a 6D...  If you want the dual cards and slightly less moire + headphone monitoring now and have ~$2000 burning a hole in your pocket....

to be honest the 6d / 5d is quite an investment for me, so i want to make sure that in 2-3 years my camera will still be up to par with the industry!

imagine in a year everyone is on 5d shooting 4k raw and im sitting there shooting moire'd raw HD hahaha (which is still awesome btw!)

kgv5

I've hearded somewhere that the best investment for a long time are good quality lenses and probably you will have to change body in 2-3 years anyway.
Of course you will do what you want but I think now the 6D has a very good price to quality ratio. I believe, that it didn't tell the last word in terms or RAW yet (especially when 12 or 10 bit RAW will be availabe)
in fullHD raw 64GB card can take up to 12-13 minuts I believe, 1540x640 would be about 2 times more so I consider this as some kind of compression ;) which in fact keeps much much better quality than stock h264.
I switched to 6D from 550D T2i and this was impressive upgrade. The main reason for me was the low light performance and price which was kind of acceptable (movies or stills are not my main job) Moire and aliasing? Sure, they exists,but 2-3 years ago 5D2 was everybodys dream camera and nobody cried about this issues. Later on optical AA and moire filter becames availabe which now are also for a 6D so there is some solution.
When raw becomes available the first thing which comes to my mind was to sell 6D, add a ton of money and buy 5D3.
When I saw 1000x or so CF card prices (needed for 1920x800 shooting) I was cured  :)
www.pilotmovies.pl   5D Mark III, 6D, 550D

darkstarr

Quote from: kgv5 on May 25, 2013, 08:45:53 AM
I've hearded somewhere that the best investment for a long time are good quality lenses and probably you will have to change body in 2-3 years anyway.
Of course you will do what you want but I think now the 6D has a very good price to quality ratio. I believe, that it didn't tell the last word in terms or RAW yet (especially when 12 or 10 bit RAW will be availabe)
in fullHD raw 64GB card can take up to 12-13 minuts I believe, 1540x640 would be about 2 times more so I consider this as some kind of compression ;) which in fact keeps much much better quality than stock h264.
I switched to 6D from 550D T2i and this was impressive upgrade. The main reason for me was the low light performance and price which was kind of acceptable (movies or stills are not my main job) Moire and aliasing? Sure, they exists,but 2-3 years ago 5D2 was everybodys dream camera and nobody cried about this issues. Later on optical AA and moire filter becames availabe which now are also for a 6D so there is some solution.
When raw becomes available the first thing which comes to my mind was to sell 6D, add a ton of money and buy 5D3.
When I saw 1000x or so CF card prices (needed for 1920x800 shooting) I was cured  :)

thanks for your input,

tomorrow is the last day for me to return it, im still thinking about it...
i have to admit when i looked at the price of those 1000x cf cards too i was like damn.... forget it lol

so how long can the 6d currently shoot continuous full hd? if it can

i was also extremely impressed with the 6d's low light capabilities, coming from a 60d
for me iso 12400 is the new iso 1600!



Levinson

Hi Darkstarr.

I agree it's a tough decision.

I use 5D2's and 5D3's for work. For RAW video the 5d3 has significantly less aliasing/moire, almost to the point of being non existent in most shots, and perceptibly as sharp as the 5D2 - in my opinion.

If someone can give a 5D3 v 6D aliasing/moire comparison, that might help your decision, especially if it's as good as the 5D3 or better.

From what I've read, the 5D3 has a few more "photo goodies" you may benefit from.

Either way, all the best with your decision.
5d3, 5d2 & 550d

kgv5

Quote from: darkstarr on May 27, 2013, 09:18:10 AM
thanks for your input,

tomorrow is the last day for me to return it, im still thinking about it...
i have to admit when i looked at the price of those 1000x cf cards too i was like damn.... forget it lol

so how long can the 6d currently shoot continuous full hd? if it can

i was also extremely impressed with the 6d's low light capabilities, coming from a 60d
for me iso 12400 is the new iso 1600!


Unfortunatelly in FullHD (1920x1080p) 6D is able to record for now only about 70 frames in older module called LV_rec. In newer one without zoom it records maximum 1840x...something and it's also about houndred frames or so.
ML is improving all the time (about month or so ago people were dreaming about  10-20 seconds of continous raw :) ) and I think our mighty devs will find some way to get more frames (especially when they succeed in getting 12 or 10 bit so frame size will be reduced)
With sandisk extreme 45MB/s and latest ML build i am getting about: (with my favourite 2,39:1 aspect ratio)

1600x670 ~300 frames ~~12sec
1680x702 ~190 frames ~~8 sec
1720x720 ~150 frames~~6,5 sec
1824x764 ~100 frames~~4 sec

1536x642 ~1300 frames ~~54 sec
1504x630 ~continous ~~ :)

The last one (1504x630) requires about 1,3x upscale to fullHD (2,39:1 aspect ratio), I was comparing this with canon stock h.264 1080p and it is much better in details, colors, dynamic range. Resolution (in terms of sharpness) is in fact quite similar but really preserves a lot more details.
Maaaaaaybe I woluld switch to 5D3 but price of the body and a fast CF card really kills me for now (2 times more) and i am not sure it is worth to change in this moment (over 1500$ more for 400x170 more pixels). I am gonna stay with my 6D and spend more time practising RAW and HDR workflows and maybe get anti aliasing/moire VAF-6D in some time.
Good luck!

www.pilotmovies.pl   5D Mark III, 6D, 550D

darkstarr

thanks for all the replies,
it is greatly appreciated and have helped in coming to a decision

kgv5,
i have to agree with most of what you said
i personally think i am getting ahead of myself, getting too caught up with this raw hype :)
its just every website i go to (eoshd, dpreview etc) are constantly talking about 5d3 raw, no love for 6d lol

but yea, ill invest in some lenses and other accessories first, then when im at a point where i need to step it up quality wise, then maybe ill consider 5d3.

till then, 6d it is, which im very very happy with so far, cant wait for further development
1% seems to be the 6d prime, so big shout out to him! keep up all the good work everyone

cheers


kgv5

Quote from: darkstarr on May 28, 2013, 01:29:40 AM

its just every website i go to (eoshd, dpreview etc) are constantly talking about 5d3 raw, no love for 6d lol


Yeah, for me it is also quite annoying..  ;)
I don't think that giving away another 1500$ now to gain 20% more resolution (and nothing more, other video parameters are the same) would make me so much more happy... Maybe just for a 5 minutes  when reading eoshd site :)

And then I would be very pissed off  ;) when 1% and other devs find a way to squeeze more from 6D and others and I know this will happen some day   :)

Personally it's hard for me to imagine switching to raw shooting completely, I have not enough data storage and It would be nice to have also more computing power.

RAW feature is just month or so old so lets wait couple months more and see what will happen.
Now we should just... make new movies with great tools we already have  :)
Cheers!
www.pilotmovies.pl   5D Mark III, 6D, 550D

Audionut

Quote from: kgv5 on May 28, 2013, 09:56:22 AM
I don't think that giving away another 1500$ now to gain 20% more resolution (and nothing more, other parameters are the same) would make me so much more happy...

The AF is much much better on the 5D3.  And depending on your needs, is arguably worth a significant amount of the price difference alone.

kgv5

Yeah, It was if someone is thinking right now of changing 6D for 5D3 only because of the better RAW function. Of course that 5D3 is better in many ways (especially AF) but we are talking mainly about video features.
www.pilotmovies.pl   5D Mark III, 6D, 550D

darkstarr

Quote from: kgv5 on May 28, 2013, 09:56:22 AM
RAW feature is just month or so old so lets wait couple months more and see what will happen.
Now we should just... make new movies with great tools we already have  :)
Cheers!
yessir!

kgv5

Before: (27 May)                                                  Now: (03 June)
                                                             
                                                             
1600x670 ~300 frames ~~12sec    >>> 1600x672    950 frames
1680x702 ~190 frames ~~8 sec    >>>  1664x704   528  frames
1720x720 ~150 frames~~6,5 sec   >>> 1728x736  342 frames
1824x764 ~100 frames~~4 sec    >>>   1792x672  421   frames


You see??? Couple of days  - and I believe it's not over yet  :D
www.pilotmovies.pl   5D Mark III, 6D, 550D

Gobian

This is truly stunning! ML team are amazing & talented people, in few days are improving buffer size to new levels and we must not forget that on this case (6D) they have to deal with the SD card limits, this is really remarkable.

Well done guys, keep it up.

P.S. If anyone comes around Valencia (Spain) I´ll be more than happy to buy them a round  :)
[SIZE=1]6D | 550D | Canon f4/24-105mm IS USM | Canon f4/70-200mm USM |Canon f1.8/85mm | Canon f1.4/50mm |Tokina f2.8/11-16mm |

AnotherDave

If your aim is to shoot 1080p Raw... yes.

But should you then just return your 6D, and get a 4k BMCC?  I don't know.

This is all in it's early early stages... 

darkstarr

Quote from: kgv5 on June 03, 2013, 05:24:43 PM
Before: (27 May)                                                  Now: (03 June)
                                                             
                                                             
1600x670 ~300 frames ~~12sec    >>> 1600x672    950 frames
1680x702 ~190 frames ~~8 sec    >>>  1664x704   528  frames
1720x720 ~150 frames~~6,5 sec   >>> 1728x736  342 frames
1824x764 ~100 frames~~4 sec    >>>   1792x672  421   frames


You see??? Couple of days  - and I believe it's not over yet  :D

haha nice!!! thanks for the updates!

xNiNELiVES

Hey guys if you don't wanna spend any extra money and obtain higher resolutions continuously there's some camera called the 5D Mark ii.

ilguercio

If i had a 6D and i wanted longer raw recording at higher resolutions i would just buy a 50D, since it sells for less than $500.
I would not touch the 5DII, to be honest, 50D is such a cheaper alternative and you got the 6D with its impressive low light capabilities.
Remember that both the 50D and the 5DII are almost 5 years old cameras, ISO performance is not that amazing and so many other things.
Canon EOS 6D, 60D, 50D.
Sigma 70-200 EX OS HSM, Sigma 70-200 Apo EX HSM, Samyang 14 2.8, Samyang 35 1.4, Samyang 85 1.4.
Proud supporter of Magic Lantern.

xNiNELiVES

Yeah but remember in 1x mode it only can record at a max resolution of 1584x1056. Only in 3x mode you can even get 1080p plus to my eye, even at 1080p the image seems a bit soft. Just my opinion. Still a great camera for the money. I was gonna also recommend to the person posting this thread to buy a 50d and spend around $2700 on glass or CF Cards.

canonuser78

Quote from: kgv5 on June 03, 2013, 05:24:43 PM
Before: (27 May)                                                  Now: (03 June)
                                                             
                                                             
1600x670 ~300 frames ~~12sec    >>> 1600x672    950 frames
1680x702 ~190 frames ~~8 sec    >>>  1664x704   528  frames
1720x720 ~150 frames~~6,5 sec   >>> 1728x736  342 frames
1824x764 ~100 frames~~4 sec    >>>   1792x672  421   frames


You see??? Couple of days  - and I believe it's not over yet  :D

Thanks for sharing ,how about continous rec ,which max res /frames ?