CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)

Started by Grunf, May 17, 2013, 03:10:09 PM

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mogs

pascalc, if I was attempting to solder wires to a CF connector, rather than hacking open a card I would use on of these

and cut the (male) CF socket off, and solder wires to the pads on the (female) plug.  The connector has pads on both sides of the board and therefore gives a much coarser pitch to solder wires to, it also appears to have generous sized pads.

You would need to be careful to make sure none of the pads are connected to each other electrically before soldering any wires on.

albert-e

Quote from: mogs on June 07, 2013, 04:15:28 AM
This guy has made a CF host to to 2.5" IDE device work by soldering wires directly into the CF socket (not ideal).
The interconnect between the two interfaces looks legitimate though and could be the "last inch" needed for a CF to SATA converter.

http://www.natrium42.com/blog/?p=39

This is the better design interface and the way to go. Although, you need a CF riser extender card or CF extender cable to connect the interface(CF side) to the camera). Try an IDE drive first. Focus on this. See if Magic Lantern, enumerate the device setup as a Compact Flash (I know it would), then your work is done. The rest would be easy!, IDE to SATA last.

albert-e

Quote from: mogs on June 08, 2013, 01:18:07 AM
pascalc, if I was attempting to solder wires to a CF connector, rather than hacking open a card I would use on of these

and cut the (male) CF socket off, and solder wires to the pads on the (female) plug.  The connector has pads on both sides of the board and therefore gives a much coarser pitch to solder wires to, it also appears to have generous sized pads.

You would need to be careful to make sure none of the pads are connected to each other electrically before soldering any wires on.

This is perfect, CF Extension cable is needed (something like this: http://www.sycard.com/cfext182.html) or the CF to SATA:http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200152CVF. All that is required is a cable (CF female connector to the camera).

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/12-200-152CVF-01.jpg

hirethestache

Hah, would it be as simple as using the 182 extender and plugging it directly into a CF-to-SSD adapter such as this one below?
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/581025713/SATA_to_Compact_Flash_SSD_Adapter.htm

l
Quote from: albert-e on June 08, 2013, 03:37:45 AM
This is perfect, CF Extension cable is needed (something like this: http://www.sycard.com/cfext182.html) or the CF to SATA:http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200152CVF. All that is required is a cable (CF female connector to the camera).

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/12-200-152CVF-01.jpg



Just noticed in your amazon CFSATA that hot swapping would not be possible, and Im assuming the same is with my alibaba model :(
@HireTheStache
www.HireTheStache.com
C100, 5D3, 5D2, 6D

Haliburton

I thought the link was dead, but in fact it's just a copy/paste error: the URL needs a a lower-case "L" on the end:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/581025713/SATA_to_Compact_Flash_SSD_Adapter.html

Quote from: hirethestache on June 08, 2013, 05:27:37 AM
Hah, would it be as simple as using the 182 extender and plugging it directly into a CF-to-SSD adapter such as this one below?
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/581025713/SATA_to_Compact_Flash_SSD_Adapter.htm

l

Just noticed in your amazon CFSATA that hot swapping would not be possible, and Im assuming the same is with my alibaba model :(

g3gg0

Quote from: pascalc on June 07, 2013, 08:35:24 AM
@g3gg0
I can't have the external CF card recognized by the camera with CF extender.

so the problem is that your *pure* CF extender isnt working?
this extender isnt IDE to CF and CF to IDE, but only a CF extender, right?
if yes, then the camera has to boot.

any adapter that is made for translating or adapting smth. will most likely *not* work and/or crash the camera.
thats why i made the patched binary and asked what the module says when you select its menu entry

5D3 binary: http://upload.g3gg0.de/pub_files/cb261038fbe4ce0542c6916157095823/autoexec.bin
module: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5471.msg36699#msg36699


@peter.scharff:
can you test the same please?
the module output on loading is useless. to into menu and run the menu entry.
Help us with datasheets - Help us with register dumps
magic lantern: 1Magic9991E1eWbGvrsx186GovYCXFbppY, server expenses: [email protected]
ONLY donate for things we have done, not for things you expect!

atarijedi

This is a real head scratcher of a problem, without going the custom route that is.

Makes me wonder if we could order a CF connector that you don't need to solder, maybe it is a pressure/snap fit, and then do the same with an IDE connector, with the appropriate wiring that is. Still custom, but a helluva lot easier.

But I am not sure if the host would recognize the hdd as an IDE device.

Anyways, Digikey sells both connectors, a female CF card socket (1), and a male IDE header (2), we don't have to use these exact connectors, but its so crazy it just might work.

They also sell an entire CF card "kit" (3), which reminds me of PCMCIA cards with that thick part at the end. If we went this route, we could even maybe hire someone to design a circuit that connects the CF side directly to a SATA bridge IC and a SATA socket.

Click the datasheet for more information on the part.

(1) http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/0677990004/WM3468DKR-ND/2405081

(2) http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/87332-4020/WM18085-ND/267709

(3) http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/589181000000003/589181000000003-ND/1428795

deleted.acct.20132206

Does anyone know if this CF to IDE mapping table will work? Sourcehttp://www.natrium42.com/blog/?p=39

CF Socket | Pin HDD Pin | Function
1    GND    GND
2    11    D3
3    9    D4
4    7    D5
5    5    D6
6    3    D7
7    37    ~CS0
8    N/C    A10
9    N/C    ~ATA SEL
10    N/C    A9
11    N/C    A8
12    N/C    A7
13    N/C    VCC
14    N/C    A6
15    N/C    A5
16    N/C    A4
17    N/C    A3
18    36    A2
19    33    A1
20    35    A0
21    17    D0
22    15    D1
23    13    D2
24    32    ~IOCS16
25    N/C    ~CD2
26    N/C    ~CD1
27    10    D11
28    12    D12
29    14    D13
30    16    D14
31    18    D15
32    38    ~CS1
33    N/C    ~VS1
34    25    ~IORD
35    23    ~IOWR
36    N/C    ~WE
37    31    INTRQ
38    N/C    VCC
39    28    ~CSEL
40    N/C    ~VS2
41    1    ~RESET
42    27    IORDY
43    21    DMARQ
44    29    ~DMACK
45    39    ~DASP
46    34    ~PDIAG
47    4    D8
48    6    D9
49    8    D10
50    GND    GND

The remaining IDE pins are connected as follows:

GND: 2, 19, 22, 24, 26, 30, 40, 43
VCC: 41, 42
N/C: 20, 44
Good is good, but better carries it!

hirethestache

Why look into an IDE interface, with a maximum transfer speed of 163mb/s?
@HireTheStache
www.HireTheStache.com
C100, 5D3, 5D2, 6D

heavygrafix

Quote from: hirethestache on June 08, 2013, 07:26:56 PM
Why look into an IDE interface, with a maximum transfer speed of 163mb/s?

Real 163 MB would be amazing. 2880*1280 is realistic for this write speed. but i think there are so many other bottlenecks to solve in these constructions.  i am a little anxious about all this.
5D Mark III, SP 24-70 2.8 Di VC, KB 1000x 64Gb, KB 1050x 128GB

akiesels

Hey guys,

I think there is a much simpler solution to do this with off-the-shelf parts. 

There is a CF to IDE adapter manufactured by Fabia Tech in Taiwan that basically exposes a standard 40 pin IDE connector at the end of a "dummy" CF card:

http://www.rcpcomputer.com/automation/FA/CF%20Adapter%20Boards/IDE%20to%20CF/FB4658.pdf

It seems to be rebranded by ES&S Cable in Europe:

http://www.esskabel.de/upload/files/pdf/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40_DE.pdf

but I haven't found any US resellers.


You can then use a standard 40 pin cable to connect it to this SATA device to IDE host controller adapter manufactured by Lycom:

http://www.lycom.com.tw/ST106-2.htm

It's rebranded by Rosewill in the US:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812119257

And seems to be also available from ES&S Cable in Europe:
http://www.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-sata-ii-ide40-ly/1

The spec says it supports ATA UDMA mode up to 150MB/s.  The SATA side will not be a problem, as it's much much faster.

You should then be able to use any SATA SSD drive, though you'll need to supply external power to it.

I am not sure how much the CF-IDE adapter costs, but it seems to be all passive electronics - just a wire mapping.  So, I can't imagine it being too pricey.  So, without the SSD and the power supply, I am guessing it's less than $50 to try out.

Hope this helps!
Alexander

hirethestache

Quote from: akiesels on June 08, 2013, 11:04:38 PM
Hey guys,

I think there is a much simpler solution to do this with off-the-shelf parts. 

There is a CF to IDE adapter manufactured by Fabia Tech in Taiwan that basically exposes a standard 40 pin IDE connector at the end of a "dummy" CF card:

http://www.rcpcomputer.com/automation/FA/CF%20Adapter%20Boards/IDE%20to%20CF/FB4658.pdf

It seems to be rebranded by ES&S Cable in Europe:

http://www.esskabel.de/upload/files/pdf/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40_DE.pdf

but I haven't found any US resellers.


You can then use a standard 40 pin cable to connect it to this SATA device to IDE host controller adapter manufactured by Lycom:

http://www.lycom.com.tw/ST106-2.htm

It's rebranded by Rosewill in the US:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812119257

And seems to be also available from ES&S Cable in Europe:
http://www.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-sata-ii-ide40-ly/1

The spec says it supports ATA UDMA mode up to 150MB/s.  The SATA side will not be a problem, as it's much much faster.

You should then be able to use any SATA SSD drive, though you'll need to supply external power to it.

I am not sure how much the CF-IDE adapter costs, but it seems to be all passive electronics - just a wire mapping.  So, I can't imagine it being too pricey.  So, without the SSD and the power supply, I am guessing it's less than $50 to try out.

Hope this helps!
Alexander

To my very limited knowledge, wouldnt the use of the IDE host eliminate the ability to hot-swap drives?
@HireTheStache
www.HireTheStache.com
C100, 5D3, 5D2, 6D

akiesels

Correct.  IDE is not hot-swappable.  But CF is basically a Parallel ATA IDE interface, so we don't have much choice.  Can you hot-swap CF cards on a 5D without powering down the camera?

hirethestache

Quote from: akiesels on June 08, 2013, 11:39:41 PM
Correct.  IDE is not hot-swappable.  But CF is basically a Parallel ATA IDE interface, so we don't have much choice.  Can you hot-swap CF cards on a 5D without powering down the camera?

The hotswapping is not for CF purposes, it is for use on the SSD side.
@HireTheStache
www.HireTheStache.com
C100, 5D3, 5D2, 6D

akiesels

For what it's worth, it says "SATA hot plug" on the Lycom adapter spec sheet:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812119257

But I am not sure how well that would work with the camera.  The fact that you can get a terabyte SSD drive for roughly the same price as a 128GB CF card should make swapping less of an issue  ;)


heavygrafix

Quote from: akiesels on June 08, 2013, 11:04:38 PM
Hey guys,

I think there is a much simpler solution to do this with off-the-shelf parts. 

There is a CF to IDE adapter manufactured by Fabia Tech in Taiwan that basically exposes a standard 40 pin IDE connector at the end of a "dummy" CF card:

http://www.rcpcomputer.com/automation/FA/CF%20Adapter%20Boards/IDE%20to%20CF/FB4658.pdf

It seems to be rebranded by ES&S Cable in Europe:

http://www.esskabel.de/upload/files/pdf/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40_DE.pdf

but I haven't found any US resellers.


You can then use a standard 40 pin cable to connect it to this SATA device to IDE host controller adapter manufactured by Lycom:

http://www.lycom.com.tw/ST106-2.htm

It's rebranded by Rosewill in the US:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812119257

And seems to be also available from ES&S Cable in Europe:
http://www.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-sata-ii-ide40-ly/1

The spec says it supports ATA UDMA mode up to 150MB/s.  The SATA side will not be a problem, as it's much much faster.

You should then be able to use any SATA SSD drive, though you'll need to supply external power to it.

I am not sure how much the CF-IDE adapter costs, but it seems to be all passive electronics - just a wire mapping.  So, I can't imagine it being too pricey.  So, without the SSD and the power supply, I am guessing it's less than $50 to try out.

Hope this helps!
Alexander

5D Mark III, SP 24-70 2.8 Di VC, KB 1000x 64Gb, KB 1050x 128GB

atarijedi

Quote from: akiesels on June 08, 2013, 11:04:38 PM
Hey guys,

I think there is a much simpler solution to do this with off-the-shelf parts. 

There is a CF to IDE adapter manufactured by Fabia Tech in Taiwan that basically exposes a standard 40 pin IDE connector at the end of a "dummy" CF card:

http://www.rcpcomputer.com/automation/FA/CF%20Adapter%20Boards/IDE%20to%20CF/FB4658.pdf

It seems to be rebranded by ES&S Cable in Europe:

http://www.esskabel.de/upload/files/pdf/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40_DE.pdf

but I haven't found any US resellers.


You can then use a standard 40 pin cable to connect it to this SATA device to IDE host controller adapter manufactured by Lycom:

http://www.lycom.com.tw/ST106-2.htm

It's rebranded by Rosewill in the US:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812119257

And seems to be also available from ES&S Cable in Europe:
http://www.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-sata-ii-ide40-ly/1

The spec says it supports ATA UDMA mode up to 150MB/s.  The SATA side will not be a problem, as it's much much faster.

You should then be able to use any SATA SSD drive, though you'll need to supply external power to it.

I am not sure how much the CF-IDE adapter costs, but it seems to be all passive electronics - just a wire mapping.  So, I can't imagine it being too pricey.  So, without the SSD and the power supply, I am guessing it's less than $50 to try out.

Hope this helps!
Alexander

Good find on that Dummy CF card!

I guess we just need to find out if it will all work together.

mogs

^ If this device can be sourced it may be your best chance of getting something working.

akiesels

Quote from: heavygrafix on June 09, 2013, 02:15:33 AM


That's a funny rendering  ;)

But jokes aside, an adapter like this can be fabricated at end user cost of $20 or less.  The elusive "dummy" CF to IDE card has been mentioned in this thread before, btw.  I didn't discover it.  But it seems to be discontinued, as I can't find it anywhere.  I've contacted ES&S but haven't heard back from them.  Still, as this is a passive connector, it would be easy to build.  99% of CF to IDE adapters out there are CF readers, but electrically they should be very similar.  The real test lies in the Lycom adapter, which as far as I can tell the only one in its class to support high UDMA modes.


Cityeater

Sorry I know this is redundant but I just saw this and while I'm sure its useless maybe it will stir some creative juices. Perhaps there's a CF card one too.

http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Cameras/Memory-Cards/SDSDHC-Cards/WEOL5404G

Its a shame its not as easy as this thing with an extension cable but such is life. 

As always I'm looking forward to a breakthrough in this area, best of luck.



albert-e

Quote from: Cityeater on June 09, 2013, 05:04:15 PM
Sorry I know this is redundant but I just saw this and while I'm sure its useless maybe it will stir some creative juices. Perhaps there's a CF card one too.

http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Cameras/Memory-Cards/SDSDHC-Cards/WEOL5404G

Its a shame its not as easy as this thing with an extension cable but such is life. 

As always I'm looking forward to a breakthrough in this area, best of luck.

As described, the Olin Fusion SD/USB combined card reader combines the storage capacity of an SD card with the convenience of an attached USB 2.0. It's of no use to the project but hey ... a little ad is good? :-)

Cityeater

Hah, not so much an ad I'm just romantic about the (false) idea or dream of it being as simple as a cable or adapter. I saw this thing for sale and I just thought I would share it.
SSDs are so cheap now the prospect of spitting RAW to a 480gb drive would probably cover me for most of the drama shooting I do.
I wish I had the technical know how to help. As it is I just have to watch appreciatively from the sideline.
Sorry for the interruption.

albert-e

Quote from: Grunf on May 17, 2013, 03:10:09 PM
With existing ML patch allowing us to record raw data to CF card and EDMAC DMA-copy having very high bandwidth (>500MB/sec), it's becoming obvious that it's CF speed that is biggest obstacle in using raw for higher resolutions and/or frame rates.

To circumvent pricey (and often temperamental) CF cards, we need reliable CF-to-SATA transfer interface.

My belief is that such device could be done.

What we need is Bi-Directional converter for serial and parallel ATA that supports UDMA-7 on PATA side. SATA side isn't important as even the lowest speed (rev.1 ) is 150MB/s which is almost as good as UDMA-7 157MB/s.

Quick Google search: here's one for 38 dollars:

http://www.cooldrives.com/saidecomisat1.html

Quick check of specs:
Serial ATA 1.0 Specification compliant
Automatic Serial ATA 1.5 Gbps speed negotiation
ATA / ATAPI PIO mode 0 to 4
ATA / ATAPI Ultra DMA of transfer rate 16.7, 25, 33, 48, 66, 100, 133, and 150MB/s.

It supports UDMA-7 on PATA-side!!!


One thing that is left is to interface IDE to CF slot. Electrical specs should be the same, but physical interface differ.
Thus, we need female "faux CF"-to-PATA passive adapter. I don't know if such exist but I could make one by disassembling old CF card and soldering new lines. :D

Are there any other radio-shack geezers that would like to volunteer for some good-old HW tinkering? ;)

Grunf and fellow hackers/ML supporters: I don't know where we are at this project at this stage with all the promise of finally pushing through with the project. Thanks to all the ideas but I don't know who have actually started to tinker, solder or whatever scrap boards you have in your basement. The excitement was there definitely but who actually own this project, Grunf? Any?

I would like to know who are really serious in pushing through this project. Do the members of ML developer team will render support in case there are software changes to the ML firmware i.e. Device support in cases where the firmware(host) does not recognize(enumerate)
the interface (as a Compact Flash)? Please let me know.

FYI, to push through with the project I ordered this:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/380396358222?item=380396358222&autorefresh=true

from Ebay. I would like to know if we will have software support from the ML developer team (very important) and the supporters or we are on our own?

pascalc

@g3gg0
As english is not my native language, I'm not sure to understand all what you means. Sorry I the answer is not what you was expecting.

Yes the camera boots but like if there was no card instead.

The adapter is not working in the camera, but works in the computer with Lexar CF usb3 reader. I'm wondering why.
I can't test/check the card outside with ML because the module is impossible to load, err 70, and without module, no card test line in the menu.

pascalc