Author Topic: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording  (Read 759452 times)

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1050 on: May 16, 2013, 10:32:50 PM »
Quote
Atomos for a project.

The HDMI recording at this point is a joke. As long as your card is fast enough even under sized/upscaled raws will be better than what the HDMI puts out. I think we kinda peed on  their "upgrade".

Someone should do a test... record raw 24P... record HDMI YUV (we could take a crop of the regular YUV and record too, couldn't we?) uprez to the same size and compare :)

mageye

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1051 on: May 16, 2013, 10:35:31 PM »
Just chuckled to myself. Uploading these lovely RAW videos to YouTube is like sending it back through the 5D h264 algorithm!!!

(actually it probably is h264 compression anyway!?!)

But its still funny getting the very best quality footage to essentially degrade it to bits :D
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Peter Linov

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1052 on: May 16, 2013, 10:41:15 PM »
we must look at the picture. you see the difference? see everything. is it good? or is it not necessary to lay out, because who thinks otherwise?
My clients do not need to RAW, it is important to the quality of accessible format to watch at home.

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1053 on: May 16, 2013, 10:49:22 PM »
While its funny that they are getting H264'd again its much better to start with a non 8 bit image when post processing.

Clients may not need raw but they may need corrections that would fall apart at 8bit... if any of your clients need chroma key and you have to do it in 8 bit  :o

mujart

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1054 on: May 16, 2013, 10:49:56 PM »
i use this files in my 5D MK III,
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7QlH_BH2m32dWpOOEpkWktXMXM/edit

the problem there is the line of RAW VIDEO  NOT exist basically

like this photos:




and when press on load modules nothing happend !!

is there any solution??

Alia5

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1055 on: May 16, 2013, 10:52:07 PM »
1%: Like i said a few pages ago, with the new "beeps twice" (wich doesn beep twice for me) i get ZERO magenta frames when recording in 720x400
going to higher resolutions, and the buffer fills up more, i get this magenta stuff again!

i really think it has something to do with sd-writespeeds/the buffers

global draw is always off

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1056 on: May 16, 2013, 10:53:09 PM »
Yup, could be that too. I think we need even more buffer :)

AnotherDave

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1057 on: May 16, 2013, 10:53:41 PM »
I don't want this post to get off topic, but yes HDMI out is indeed an upgrade.

It may not be as clean as RAW, but storage-wise and being able to go straight into an NLE is pretty amazing.

I'd rather shoot raw, but when your camera is working for a living... speed is everything.

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1058 on: May 16, 2013, 11:06:38 PM »
I was able to write without dropping frames
1920x960 25 frames per second!
1920x672 50  frames per second!
Transcend  32gb 1000x
I just wrote above how I got it.
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Mei Lewis

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1059 on: May 16, 2013, 11:14:59 PM »
Sadly, I've upgraded to 1.2.1 and my 5D3 is being used with an Atomos for a project... so I can't test this builds out until it is done.

But, I was thinking... the main problem it seems we're dealing with here is the write speed of the CF cards, right?

There are plenty of companies that make CF to SSD converters... there HAS to be a way to adapter SSD to CF.  Right?

That would solve all the issues of speed, and storage with raw shooting.  Some sort of external module with a cable connector
and a pin converter...

Or am I just being hopeful?

Dave

How about recording to the CF and SC cards in parallel? Twice the capacity and ???x the speed?

Alia5

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1060 on: May 16, 2013, 11:18:10 PM »
okay i checked a bit more on 600D
no magenta frames on 640x480 mode... even when recording in 1120x400

same size in 720p mode, 1080p mode or photo-mode

so... its not the buffer...(?)

haysuess

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1061 on: May 16, 2013, 11:18:47 PM »
global draw off, and also set FPS override to 24

I have global draw off, and FPS override set to 24 exact FPS. Any other ideas? :-/

lourenco

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1062 on: May 16, 2013, 11:25:34 PM »
i use this files in my 5D MK III,
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7QlH_BH2m32dWpOOEpkWktXMXM/edit

the problem there is the line of RAW VIDEO  NOT exist basically


and when press on load modules nothing happend !!

is there any solution??

That is an old build. I just replaced those old files with newer ones from yesterday. You would want re-download that.  I will be posting a newer one later tonight given new updates just came out. 
5D Mark III, CF Lexar 1000X 32GB, 24-105 F4L

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1063 on: May 16, 2013, 11:28:35 PM »
http://yadi.sk/d/gx75Q5t04uUQ0
1920x1080 25fps
Frame skip: 1
5D Mark III
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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1064 on: May 16, 2013, 11:31:34 PM »
Quote
so... its not the buffer...(?)

CPU and memory then? Or too much edmac usage on other channels... YUV buffer is much smaller in 640x480.

So I've tried the HDR and while you wouldn't know it from the screen it seems to work. Preview was flashy.


Indicators had to be removed from "faking" recording... I did it for my 6D stuff. I still have some sound stuff to rework. Have to come up with something... I have FPS wav, H264 wav and now raw_rec wav.... so I only have input changing/audio meters set up for H264 wav which is kind of funny. I think we need a unified "record wav" flag to handle all of these modes. Raw histos and spot meter showing up too.. I'm not seeing a hit with the write or anything.

Ok, slight hit to write from the spot meter. Not the histo tho.

Chris F

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1065 on: May 16, 2013, 11:39:38 PM »
Kind of hard to follow all this. From what I think I'm reading, there likely won't be a way to record raw on the Rebel cameras in a resolution much better than SD. While that dynamic range is great, it doesn't look a whole lot better in resolution after it has been upscaled than the H264. Is there likely a way that we will be able to record a better quality 1080p (or close to it) video than what the H264 can do? MJPEG? JPEG sequence?

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1066 on: May 16, 2013, 11:41:27 PM »
That is an old build. You should try a newer build.  I will be posting a newer one later tonight given new updates just came out. 

Here is one from yesterday you can update to. You just want to overwrite the old files with these new ones. 

 5D3:  https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34113196/Camera%20stuff/ML/ML-5D3-RAW_VIDEO.zip
I'll try this new one. It frames fall!

It is on this I was able to record 1920 x 1080 25 fps and 1920 x 1280 25 fps :D
http://yadi.sk/d/0ogqyTkb4uUvL
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KMA_WWC

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1067 on: May 16, 2013, 11:43:33 PM »
Just returned my Komputerbay 128gb card and ordered 3x 64gb cards. Will be testing it and see if there is any deference between them.

Actually what I realized is that even komputerbay tests show that 64gb is a lot faster than 128gb.
Canon 5D Mark III

Alia5

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1068 on: May 16, 2013, 11:48:20 PM »
if i record with sound on my 600d (ml audiorecorder), i either loose wav, get skipped frames, or camera is crashing instantly!
except i record in really tight crops....

if im in 640x480 mode i still dont get any magenta frame
i feel like photo-mode works best after 640x480, but dont rely on that! just a feeling didnt test this much

Edit: can confirm this! photo mode (m) and 640x480 work both without any magenta frame! /Edit

besides an interesting fact:
the higher the iso the more fixed (noise?) dots i get when viewing the dngs with picasa...
just like beeing said it doesnt matter in acr

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1069 on: May 17, 2013, 12:20:18 AM »
Yep.. not enough to record audio with most resolutions. On 6D too.. get a ton of wav drops unless I lower the res. On 600D it did actually crash if the res was too high.

mageye

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1070 on: May 17, 2013, 12:23:18 AM »
While its funny that they are getting H264'd again its much better to start with a non 8 bit image when post processing.

Clients may not need raw but they may need corrections that would fall apart at 8bit... if any of your clients need chroma key and you have to do it in 8 bit  :o

Totally agree!!! still funny  ;D ::)
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mageye

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1071 on: May 17, 2013, 12:30:12 AM »
OK a better rendered version of my previous YouTube 5DMKII RAW test upload:

YouTube here:


and for the actual file here at mega:

https://mega.co.nz/#!Ut0mxSzJ!ZfuzVXUykfAmarhxQXZqhCRUagFTVBbZFbxwlDE-wsE
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tonybeccar

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1072 on: May 17, 2013, 12:32:50 AM »
If you first do a write benchmark card and then start recording there is no drop-down shots! Probably during the test memory is freed.

Excuse me, I read correctly? 50fps at almost 1080p??????! Is this how you said you accomplished it?

Why did your comment passed unseen? It is freaking awesome!!!!!!!!!

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1073 on: May 17, 2013, 01:09:48 AM »
Excuse me, I read correctly? 50fps at almost 1080p??????! Is this how you said you accomplished it?

Why did your comment passed unseen? It is freaking awesome!!!!!!!!!
Tomorrow afternoon I will take the test at 50 frames sun. :-) And let's see. When unpacking the information that was not missed shots. I'll be shocked. Could not understand how this is possible ...
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platu

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Re: uncompressed 14-bit RAW video recording
« Reply #1074 on: May 17, 2013, 01:31:30 AM »

I just ordered and received the same CF card as you... the KomputerBay 128gb 1000x CF card and have been running tests with each of the various Raw builds over the last 3 days.  The latest build for 5D3 someone just posted from today seems to be the best in terms of speed... see http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5413.25 (Reply #30).  This includes some small memory tweaks that definitely helped me get a little bit longer runtimes as well as moved me up to the next resolution without dropped frames.

Here has been my experience with the KomputerBay 128 GB 1000x CF card...

For my tests, I tried Global draw turned ON and OFF and there was no significant difference except maybe a second or two extra of recording time but the extra time was not consistent.  So I decided to leave Global Draw = ON (with just peaking and crop marks enabled).


My tests using the ML benchmark utility shows read speeds that range anywhere from 52MB/s to 72MB/s.  Using CrystalDiskMark and ATTO Disk Benchmark, I get similar write speeds so my particular card seems to have a write speed that varies a bit.  I would say the average write speed that I get most of the time is about 65MB/s which is completely in line with the ML benchmarks and the listed speed needed by each resolution listed under the RAW video section of ML.  So I would trust the ML benchmarks and recommended write speeds for each resolution.  I have also confirmed that at least one other person is getting similar write speed using this card.

That said, the buffer/memory tweak Alex made today did have a significant impact when using my card. 

Here are my tests Before today's build...
1920 x 720 or less resolution (no skipped frames for complete 4gb file)
1920 x 840 (no skipped frames for complete 4 gb file)... before today's build, this was the best I could do.
1920 x 900 (no skipped frames for complete 4 gb file)... tweaks added to today's build allowed me to use resolution for first time
1920 x 960 (maybe 10 seconds before frame skipping begins.. unusable beyond that)
1920 x 1080 (maybe 1-2 seconds before frame skipping begins... unusabe beyond that)

After using today's build...
1920 x 900 (no skipped frames for complete 4 gb file) before today's build, I could not use this resolution
1920 x 960 (went from 10 seconds to 20 seconds before frame skipping begins.. unusable beyond that)
1920 x 1080 (went from 1-2 seconds to 5 seconds before frame skipping begins... unusabe beyond that)

So the tweaks made by Alex today have definitely helped so I encourage further memory/buffer optimizations... they are making a difference.

I don't know how EOSHD, Nuemann Films, and Cinema 5D are getting 1080P and greater without dropped frames. They say they are using the same card.  Maybe some of these cards are getting faster write times.  Or maybe they are just getting that resolution for a limited time but a bit longer than me before frame skipping appears.  If any of them can chime in here to clarify, it would helpful for those considering the Komputerbay cards.  This card is by far the most realistic in terms of pricing for the vast majority of people who want to take advantage of this RAW update and plan on using it beyond test videos and personal work.  None of the other cards comes close in terms of price/gb.  The other solutions by Lexar and Toshiba (soon) are more like $650 for 128gb vs $178 or KomputerBay. I'm sure this will eventually change, but that could take a year or longer before cheaper alternatives are available.  But there is no getting around the fact that the less than ideal write speed of these cards may prevent continuous 1080p for some (depending on their particular card?).  But continued memory optimization and other techniques by the ML team may be able to extend 1080p recording from 5 seconds to 30 seconds or possibly more when using this card.  If that can be attained, the vast majority of folks will be able use this resolution in many shooting scenarios, short of documentary or event work.  I do realize that smaller resolutions can be scaled up in post nicely, but I tend to avoid that as do many others I'm sure.

Lastly, on the topic of workflow mentioned above... it's completely worth the time as far as I'm concerned.  The difference is night and day.  There are a lot of test videos coming out now, some of which don't fully capture the quality improvement gained here.  EOSHD, Nuemann Films, and Cinema 5D did great job of showing what's possible.  Just wait until some shorts and features by other skillful DOPs start to appear online.  While I don't love the added work required in post, I find it impossible to go back to H.264 after getting used to the look of my footage now...it's improved that much.

Thank you Alex and team for this... also to g3gg0 who apparently had a huge role in making this particular breakthrough happen.

A little update regarding the KomputerBay cards...

You may want to avoid recommending the 128GB version of the KomputerBay CF card. Evidence is building that the 128 version had slower real world write speeds than the 64. This prevents 1080p raw recording since the 128 doesn’t seem to attain the 83MB/s minimum write required for 1080p raw recording. The 64GB version seems to test at 90+ MB/s write while the 128GB version tests at 60-70 MB/s write.  It turns out that Andrew from EOSHD was using the 64gb variety of the KomputerBay card for his Raw tests, which is why he was able to utilize even greater than 1080p raw without dropped frames.  This is all still unproven but I just returned my 128gb and ordered two 64gb to see for myself.