Author Topic: EC on M  (Read 9214 times)

Marsu42

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EC on M
« on: February 08, 2013, 12:45:48 AM »
A feature in constant high demand though still absent from eos1 cameras is exposure compensation in full manual mode. The problem is that with the current behavior, when using auto-iso in m you're stuck with the camera's metering, even if you know the camera will get it slightly wrong or even constantly wrong to one side (for example the 6d is said to underexpose, so you're loosing dynamic resolution and you cannot ettr). Do not underestimate this, this is a big issue for pro event and esp. pro sports photogs who usually use full manual.

Request: new item "Expo -> EC on M" settable in 1/3 iso stops, only applies to full m mode and the ec is simply added/subtracted, the two dials keep functioning for setting aperture & shutter speed. If this is implemented it'd need some safety net though (like "Warning for bad settings") to prevent people setting the ec and then forgetting about it, potentially resulting in mis-exposed shots.

Malcolm Debono

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Re: EC on M
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2013, 08:08:36 AM »
Isn't EC only used in automatic modes (P, Av, Tv) where the camera picks the exposure reading? In Manual I don't think this is necessary as changing the shutter speed or aperture basically gives you the same result.
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Marsu42

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Re: EC on M
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2013, 09:50:58 AM »
In Manual I don't think this is necessary as changing the shutter speed or aperture basically gives you the same result.

Please read again - it's for m with auto iso so t/av are locked but the camera picks the iso sensitivity - great setting for example for sports where a fixed depth of field and shutter speed is wanted but you don't want to waste iq by using a too high iso setting.

You could gain a somewhat similar effect by using the current ml auto iso in tv/av, but it's not really the same and as I wrote many pros want to shoot full m ... but on reflection the "ec on m" option might even be added to the "ml auto iso" submenu.

pholler

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Re: EC on M
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2013, 10:11:31 AM »
Yes, that would be a highly deliberated feature! A feature that the 7D, for example, already has.

In Manual mode you obviously want to choose the exposure manually. But if you put your ISO-Setting to Auto, than the camera should choose the ISO to match the EC.

stormy_weather

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Re: EC on M
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2013, 12:04:06 PM »
None of the Canon cameras allow exposure correction in M, even if they have Auto ISO in M.

Please also see here:

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=1754.0

Regards,

Sven

Marsu42

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Re: EC on M
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2013, 10:13:47 AM »
None of the Canon cameras allow exposure correction in M, even if they have Auto ISO in M.

The 1d4 is said to have some deeply buried custom function you can simulate ec on m with, though it's too inaccessible to be of any use if you want to change it often.

It's a real problem though because Canon sees no need to implement it - though it would be really simple. It's no selling point because few people shoot m anyway, and those who do are mostly professionals who won't abandon Canon for the lack of it. Even Magic Lantern devs seem to be rather reserved about implementing or commenting on this feature request, though I cannot help but to stress again how important ec on m is for "full m mode with auto iso".

a1ex

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Re: EC on M
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2013, 10:31:43 AM »
Why current ML auto ISO implementation is not enough?

Marsu42

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Re: EC on M
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2013, 01:56:34 PM »
Why current ML auto ISO implementation is not enough?

Though ML auto ISO in Av/Tv implements a kind of "m" feeling and normal camera exposure compensation works in Av/Tv mode it's not quite the same as "ec on real m":

*  Usability: With ML auto ISO you change shutter (Av) or aperture (Tv) through the menu (= slow) while in "real m" mode you change shutter and aperture with the wheels (=faster). In "ec on m" the ec would go to the "ML auto ISO" menu and that makes sense because it's not as often used - it's only there to correct for a know camera shortcoming (for example the 6d always underexposes a bit w/o ec), deliberate expose to the right/left on all shots or modify the flash ettl foreground/background relation.

*  Accessibility: The "real m" mode esp. with quick switching from auto iso to "full m with or w/o expo lock" if needed allows for more and faster flexibility for advanced photogs, and the idea of "ec on m" is much more traditional as semi-m mode with "ML auto iso" in Av/Tv. 

So again my suggestion: If possible add two new items to "ML auto ISO" menu with "ec on m" value and the priority what should be modified first (shutter over aperture over vice versa).

stormy_weather

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Re: EC on M
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2013, 09:08:25 AM »
The 1d4 is said to have some deeply buried custom function you can simulate ec on m with, though it's too inaccessible to be of any use if you want to change it often.

It's a real problem though because Canon sees no need to implement it...

If you extrapolate Canon's path to implement Auto ISO into the future, we will be there around the year 2525.

Regards,

Sven

Marsu42

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Re: EC on M
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2013, 09:13:49 AM »
If you extrapolate Canon's path to implement Auto ISO into the future, we will be there around the year 2525.

That's why we have ml :-) ... otherwise I probably would be shooting with Nikon by now. I can understand Canon is very keen on product differentiation and marketing in the Rebel segment, but Canon and their cps is said to have good pro support - but even in the upper segment they are very conservative to implement often requested features like "ec on m". Seems to have changed a little bit lately though, with the pressure from Nikon (and maybe ml, though this is not intentional) they will add clean hdmi out and f8 af to the 5d3 in the next fw update...

scurrvy2020

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Re: EC on M
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2013, 05:58:57 AM »
I'd also like to see this for 5D3. 

Pentax has this feature.  TvAv setting on the dial.  You can set Aperture and Shutter, then the camera will select the iso based on your exposure compensation. 

Your ETTR almost has it.  You just need to allow auto ISO and ETTR.  Then you would select the target as -0.5ev or something like that.

This feature is great for street shooting in low light, especially with the low noise of the 5D3.   Currently you need to stay very busy adjusting iso.  My eyes are concentrating on the exposure meter rather than focus and subject.

It'd be great if you could do this.

Marsu42

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Re: EC on M
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2013, 11:41:23 AM »
Pentax has this feature.  TvAv setting on the dial.  You can set Aperture and Shutter, then the camera will select the iso based on your exposure compensation. 

It's a real shame Canon ignores it, even the most expensive 1d cameras don't have it but only some workaround buried in the custom functions.


Your ETTR almost has it.  You just need to allow auto ISO and ETTR.  Then you would select the target as -0.5ev or something like that.

Auto-ETTR is great, but it takes time (and 1-2 shutter cycles) to measure. I still feel that esp. with "ml auto iso" gone by now (which was supposed to supersede ec on m) this would be a great feature, and it's certainly not much of an addition:

a) simple version:
* main menu item "ec on m" with +-1/3 iso stops, simply modified shutter speed accordingly

b) more elaborate version:
* main menu "ec on m"
* submenu item 1 to select the ec on m in +-1/3 iso stops
* submenu item 2 to select what should be changed: shutter, aperture or iso (~ ml auto iso)

eduperez

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Re: EC on M
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2013, 03:11:00 PM »
Just for reference, this is how we did AutoISO + M in 400plus:

  • * Only real ISO values are used (100, 200, 400, 800, 1600).
  • * User sets exposure time and aperture, and 400plus chooses an ISO value to produce a perfect exposure (as close as possible to 0EV).
  • * Using a combination of keys, user can define an offset value (+1EV, for example), so 400plus will select an ISO value that produces the desired exposure (+1EV), or as close as possible.
  • * User can also configure a "relaxed" mode: in this mode, 400plus will let the resulting EV float to +/- 2EV before changing the current ISO value.

Hope this helps.