Author Topic: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference  (Read 46017 times)

joxxie

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2012, 09:52:19 PM »
well if i pull the trigger on one .. i will definitely do it if he needs it

Marvin

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Personality is destiny
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2012, 09:54:53 PM »
well if i pull the trigger on one .. i will definitely do it if he needs it

I would suggest you save the money on an 1D C
http://www.techrific.com.au/canon-eos-1d-c-digital-slr-camera-body-only-1dc-free-gift-12mth-local-warranty-p-2956.html

this is currently the cheapest preorder. Will be released in December.
Film is truth 24 frames per second.

joxxie

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2012, 09:57:21 PM »
was talking bout 1dx .. not 1dc

mgm

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2012, 10:07:29 PM »
At US$12,999 plus tax, you'd need roughly 250-300 donations of $50 dollars each to buy a 1DC.

Many 1D/5D/7D owners looking for a real upgrade from 1080p would be willing to donate if you open a special donation fund for this project!

Thanks,

M

Marvin

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Personality is destiny
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2012, 10:23:08 PM »
At US$12,999 plus tax, you'd need roughly 250-300 donations of $50 dollars each to buy a 1DC.

Many 1D/5D/7D owners looking for a real upgrade from 1080p would be willing to donate if you open a special donation fund for this project!

Thanks,

M

The actual price is $10408, see link in previous post.
Film is truth 24 frames per second.

joxxie

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2012, 10:25:33 PM »
plus shipping from AUS .. BH photo here has it for 12,999

Chucho

  • Developer
  • Freshman
  • *****
  • Posts: 86
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2012, 11:02:04 PM »
Didn't I post this 2 weeks ago in the 5d3 thread? ??? I wouldn't trust anything Andrew posts on his website. :-*

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=1006.msg10688#msg10688

matt2491

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2012, 11:40:04 PM »
Hell I'll donate a third time just for the giggles!

scrax

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Code monkey
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2012, 12:39:21 AM »
I think that ML is similar to Osx in many way, specially in the fact that it's a way to capture new user for canon and apple. I belive that there is a lot of windows user that switched to mac after some hackintosh experience, and a lot less if none that upgraded to an hack from a mac pro.
The same is for ML supported camera, how many ML user will consider with more interest in upgrading to a better body but still with ML support?
Reading the forum seems to me that a lot of people are considering ML support a decisive choice, and a lot of user buy  canon for this software too, so even if we are moving the economy in the canon gamma that is not really a big problem for canon, maybe the more user base looking for hackable camera will compensate.
We are helping canon in selling more camera because their camera can run ML, this is the point. In a hypothetical future where all canon camera will run ML, I think that the price gap will be still there but just based on hardware, and all the feat that other vendors lack given from ML are a plus without troubles, no warranty, no extra tax for user.
If 1Dx and  1Dc are almost the same hardware and it will be possible to make them better with ML or with crossloading firmware, or any other way, don't matter. We will have canon selling more phographic dslr equipment at a lower price, and maybe sending  a bit less on the priced same hardware videographic dslr eq. BUT more people will buy the low cost no video that becomes video with ML camera, so the big loose is on video camera taxes, for what i see because if the hardware is the same canon spend the same to make one or another camera.

This is of course just my 2 cents, the idea to ask to EFF how it works legally is not bad at all.
I'm using ML2.3 for photography with:
EOS 600DML | EOS 400Dplus | EOS 5D MLbeta5- EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro  - EF-S 17-85mm f4-5.6 IS USM - EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM - 580EXII - OsX, PS, LR, RawTherapee, LightZone -no video experience-

1%

  • Developer
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5936
  • 600D/6D/50D/EOSM/7D
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2012, 05:45:45 AM »
That company selling osX PCs was a real low rent operation. Of course they got sued... you can't take someone's product, put your name on it and sell it for 1/2 off.

I doubt the cameras are identical, they probably added extra heat-sinks to the sensor and other warm bits. Current cameras get hot already when quality is cranked up. 1Dc stuff is probably in 1Dx firmware already but lack of better cooling will affect stability/performance and canon can't sell a $12k camera like that. Maybe they got better performance in the lab than they hoped and decided to make it into a product.

Quote
so the big loose is on video camera taxes

Except nobody but EU is greedy enough to tax cameras by how long they can record. Either way its going to be funny money soon enough. Dollar too, just going to take longer.

I agree that ML is selling more canon products than they could hope for. They are pretty crippled without it. High end is a different story... how many black magic cameras can I buy for a 1dx/1dc?

OSX is a little different as Apple is mainly selling hardware. Sure it helps them that people like me try it but then we go and run it on commodity hardware. Linux runs about as well but is missing so many actually usable apps for media.

scrax

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Code monkey
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2012, 10:58:16 AM »
OSX is a little different as Apple is mainly selling hardware. Sure it helps them that people like me try it but then we go and run it on commodity hardware. Linux runs about as well but is missing so many actually usable apps for media.

Apple was a company that sells hardware, now it's a company that sells music and video thru iTunes...and is selling it also to hackintosh user :) Hackintosh->iDevice->buy music and media...
What makes hackintosh cost more than a mac on the long run is the time user has to spend for keeping it updated, and yes linux is really good but I need photoshop, gimp is nice but I'm not used at all with it.
I'm using ML2.3 for photography with:
EOS 600DML | EOS 400Dplus | EOS 5D MLbeta5- EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro  - EF-S 17-85mm f4-5.6 IS USM - EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM - 580EXII - OsX, PS, LR, RawTherapee, LightZone -no video experience-

bart

  • Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2012, 02:34:08 PM »
I don't see the problem.
What we saw with the production cycle of DIGIC V is that it takes 3-4 years to produce one. With the DIGIC IV, features were revealed one by one to last 3-4 years on the same chip. The same will happen with the DIGIC V. Extra features will be spread over a couple of years as the market progresses. The 1Dc is just a preview of what's possible right away. So you either get the DIGIC V at it's full potential now for a price or wait a couple of years for 1080@60p and maybe 4k on mainstream DSLR.

If you "need" all these features to express your creativity that can't be done with your current equipment? Buy the 1Dc or some other model that fits. Otherwise make the most out of what you have and be patient. Very few members are making a feature film anytime soon and current DSLR models do fine for 720p/1080p webvideo.

I'm just exited to get this preview of what the DIGIC V is capable of. It means tweaking encoder settings might get some great improvement because the hardware is not the limiting factor anymore. For DIGIC IV it is not so clear. For me the lineskipping aliasing were always a big problem with the DIGIC IV. You can improve quality all you like but this fundamental flaw would spoil everything. If models like the 6D take care of proper resizing I see great potential in encoder tweaking. But we should respect Canons business model.

mgm

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2012, 11:49:58 PM »
If the hardware is identical, it means 1DX is capable of a 500Mbit data rate ( 1DC's data rate at 4K ). Even if we got that bitrate at 1080p, it would be a massive feature upgrade.

Marsu42

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1557
  • 66d + flashes
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2012, 09:57:41 PM »
Are you sure it's legal to do this in the first place?

I put up a poll (but plz discuss here) to get a survey: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=2902

And my 2 cents in this thread, too: For me it doesn't matter if possible, impossible or hard to do, neither if it's legal, illegal or half-legal. Directly torpedoing Canon's high-end business model is something different from beefing up low- to midrange cameras with features Canon is too lazy to implement.

I am convinced Magic Lantern is helping Canon, even if they are too conservative to acknowledge it. Directly obsoleting the 1dc is something else and might change their opinion from neutral to hostile and will hurt the manufacturer. Imho if someone or a company can afford the $6500 1dx, there's no need to help them save money. Ths ml business model should not be "give us half the $$$ difference 1dx/1dc and we'll unlock it".

joxxie

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2012, 05:22:33 PM »
I put up a poll (but plz discuss here) to get a survey: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=2902

And my 2 cents in this thread, too: For me it doesn't matter if possible, impossible or hard to do, neither if it's legal, illegal or half-legal. Directly torpedoing Canon's high-end business model is something different from beefing up low- to midrange cameras with features Canon is too lazy to implement.

I am convinced Magic Lantern is helping Canon, even if they are too conservative to acknowledge it. Directly obsoleting the 1dc is something else and might change their opinion from neutral to hostile and will hurt the manufacturer. Imho if someone or a company can afford the $6500 1dx, there's no need to help them save money. Ths ml business model should not be "give us half the $$$ difference 1dx/1dc and we'll unlock it".

So how are you going to feel if Canon releases a 5DC that  is twice the price of the mark iii and records 2k but it has the same exact hardware? Then I guess going by your logic ML should not touch it since if one can afford a mark iii they can afford a 5dc

a1ex

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12564
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2012, 05:44:46 PM »
By this logic, software developers will starve and disappear soon ;)

Why should we steal the 4K feature from 1Dc and port it to a cheaper model?!

1%

  • Developer
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5936
  • 600D/6D/50D/EOSM/7D
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2012, 07:31:27 PM »
1DC is different because it is overpriced compared to the competition. Waste of time IMHO for the 3 people that will buy one and try to hack it. Also canon is stuck on it. "5DC" vs 5DIII is a different story as the camera is at least reasonably affordable vs competing offerings. 1DC should be recording more than raw 4k 4:4:4, 5dIII should be recording 2k 4:2:2 at where they are priced.

They should be pushing their hardware/software for every model. They aren't in competition with ML, they are in competition with everyone else. It was all fun and games while others were playing catch up.

Why even release updated models if you're going to add 1 new feature. People were happy with 550D/5DII for a long time and the new models should have offered serious improvements and in some cases they did... just they were completely not taken advantage of. Leave a dummy mode for consumers and advanced mode for "pros".

Its like releasing 64-bit processors and then locking all software/memory to 32bit with the OS. Finally, crying when some devs put linux on it. People aren't going to pay to be reamed just because.


Marsu42

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1557
  • 66d + flashes
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2012, 12:12:25 PM »
They should be pushing their hardware/software for every model. They aren't in competition with ML, they are in competition with everyone else. It was all fun and games while others were playing catch up.

Correct, and every second post I do on the CR forum is complaining about this, the current Canon execs deserve to get fired. But do you think ML is here to influence or change Canon corporate policy, do you feel ML even could?

So how are you going to feel if Canon releases a 5DC that  is twice the price of the mark iii and records 2k but it has the same exact hardware? Then I guess going by your logic ML should not touch it since if one can afford a mark iii they can afford a 5dc

My logic is different from what you understood, so I'd like to explain it, sorry for the lengthy post :-o

Imho it is absolutely legit to differentiate software by features/price, on computers this is often done: You can "unlock" different versions of a software by entering different keys, though the software itself is the same. Do you feel cheated if there is "Software X basic" and "Software x pro" for different prices? Would you feel less cheated if "Software X basic" was physically missing some software components, even if it doesn't make a difference to you at all?

Canon is differentiating the 1dx/c products for general - though pricy - use as the 1dx and with a feature set that is clearly targeted for professional use with the 1dc. And if you buy Canon, you buy their cps support with it, a feature often overlooked, so it's not just Canon vs some other manufacturer that has good features, too.

A dslr is basically a computer, the the same logic applies. It's crazy people feel bad because the hardware is the same. I own a laptop, and it would run $500 Photoshop (with features I'll probably never use or even discover), but I can only afford the $90 Photoshop Elements. Do I feel cheated by Adobe?

The whole 1dc hack issue is just an excuse for saving money and legitimating it with "The manufacturer rips us off". This has been done n times over, even software cracks ("games are too expensive) destroying whole platforms like the Amiga line of computers. Believe me: I do like to simply save money in less-than-ethical ways too, esp. at big companies' expense - but at least I'm clearly saying so.

And ML (well, if I'm contributing at least) should be there to accompany Canon, not fight it because...
  • * the 1dc hack is only saving money for rich people that can afford a 1dx and
  • * it's strategical madness because we'd surely like more corporation from Canon like the ability to control non-lv mode - but they can make life much harder for ml like voiding warranties. And a dslr doesn't run user code, you cannot root it by exploits, so if Canon decides to encrypt their firmware & disable the main ml boot hook that's it.

Let's stick to the "modding" that ML is best at, adding new great features while backporting non-key elements like "3+ bracketing" to the lesser models like 5d2 while Canon obviously thinks only the 5d3 should have it - there are enough new features on the 5d3 left. I know the differentiation between "key element" or not is fuzzy, but "cracking" and obsoleting a whole camera model is clearly beyond it.

nanomad

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2918
  • All your websites are belong to us
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2012, 01:48:46 PM »
Well said.
EOS 1100D | EOS 650 (No, I didn't forget the D) | Ye Olde Canon EF Lenses ('87): 50 f/1.8 - 28 f/2.8 - 70-210 f/4 | EF-S 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 | Metz 36 AF-5

g3gg0

  • Developer
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3183
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2012, 03:50:08 PM »
ML - and what this forum and their developer stand for - is a firmware addition to add cool and necessary features.
anything like porting firmware to other models is beyond our scope and has a higher risk of legal actions.

as far i can tell, most people here would agree to that.
if a developer is willing to do that - its his own private business.
Help us with datasheets - Help us with register dumps
magic lantern: 1Magic9991E1eWbGvrsx186GovYCXFbppY, server expenses: paypal@g3gg0.de
ONLY donate for things we have done, not for things you expect!

1%

  • Developer
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5936
  • 600D/6D/50D/EOSM/7D
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2012, 04:15:07 PM »
Besides the 1dc thing, this is like BUYING photoshop elements, loading the DLLs and writing your own UI which supports importing formats that even production premium can't handle. Then Adobe gets mad and says consumers don't need those formats, go buy a program that supports them....except you can't.


tlyonstlyons

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2012, 09:44:02 PM »
Well according to EOSHD .. Andrew has confirmed by Canon that the only difference between these two cameras is firmware ..
hardware is identical. Any chance of getting the firmware off a 1DC and flashing onto a 1DX ? I am not talking about throwing
ML on there ... just seeing if it would be possible to port a 1dc firmware onto a 1dx .. seems the hardware and everything is the same.

http://www.eoshd.com/content/9044/exclusive-canon-confirm-1d-c-4k-dslr-is-same-hardware-as-the-1d-x

I shall miss Magic Lantern if you do. I assume it would all be over pretty quickly.

ML has sold more cameras for Canon (probably not many but perhaps a few) and has not apparently violated any fair use. And Canon has not appeared to object and hence not done any of the many very, very simple things a manufacturer could do to shut it down or cripple it.

Porting a firmware from a very, very expensive camera to a very expensive camera does nothing but cheat Canon of revenue that they are earning by spending money to develop innovative software. The market for such cameras is tiny and I assume Canon would stop the innovation if the port were widely adopted.

The work to port the firmware does not deserve the respect that an interesting, creative development like ML has earned. JMO.
Timmy 70d w/FW 70d.111A

a1ex

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12564
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2012, 09:44:04 AM »
Don't worry, we won't do it.

I'd go as far as excluding from ML community any developer who would try to do something like this.

eco_bach1

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2012, 09:17:52 PM »
Is this even possible? I am on the bench considering the 1DX

nanomad

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2918
  • All your websites are belong to us
Re: 1dc and 1dx .. identical hardware .. just a firmware difference
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2012, 05:24:03 PM »
Read the post above ::)
EOS 1100D | EOS 650 (No, I didn't forget the D) | Ye Olde Canon EF Lenses ('87): 50 f/1.8 - 28 f/2.8 - 70-210 f/4 | EF-S 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 | Metz 36 AF-5