650D ML can be a successful raw video camera for news shooting

[mlrocks]

I feel that I should feedback some success stories.
I tried 650D ML for about five sessions of real world events news shooting (non paid volunteer work), each session last about 2 to 4 hours, mostly from noon to afternoon, sunny day, no rain no cloud, ambient temperature kind of hot but not sweaty. 650D mode is UHD 1x3, AR 16:9, 12 bit 14 bit lossless, sd card overclocking to 240 mhz, sd card 256 gb san disk extreme pro 170 mb/s. The camera temperature was always at around 50-55 C. Later I did not pay attention to temperature anymore, yet no issue for the camera and the card.
The ml raw files were processed in mlvapp, exported to dnxhr 10 bit codec, edited in blender, finally exported to 1080p. On a 27 inch computer screen in 1080p full screen mode, image quality is so good. I would say that my little 650D ML is a baby Amira. LOL.
Thanks a lot to Bil and other ML gurus.   

[mlrocks]

auto ettr and real time high-res color liveview and swivel lcd really rock for run and gone.

[mlrocks]

I am playing with two more modes to release the full potential of my beloved small 650d.

1. 1x3 4.3k 14 bit 14 bit lossless, ar 2.39, dual iso, high res color liveview. Bil reported that dual iso is solid in this mode. I still need to learn how to do dual iso right in different scenarios. dual iso improves the dr of 650d drastically, maybe to 15 stops.

2. manual mode, photo mode, silent picture mode (full res, dng), intervalmeter on. 6k raw time lapse. 650d can do ar 3:2, most 6k raw camera cannot do ar 3:2. so 650d is 6k raw equivalent. the good thing is that i can do slow shutter speed in this mode. in video liveview mode, the slowest shutter speed is 1/30 sec. in this mode, i can go much slower. assuming that it is 2 fps, then the related shutter speed is 1/4 sec. this is 3-4 stops brighter than the video mode. so this mode maximize the resolution and the low light capacity of the 650d.
i don't know how to incorporate dual iso into this mode. not sure if dual iso works in this mode. some mlers reported that dual iso works better in photo mode. hope this holds true in this mode.
Another thing I don't know is how to process the dng files. I hope mlv app has command line batch processing mode. I tried to open several hundred dng/mlv files (single photo) in mlv app and it crashed. will investigate more on this.
Update: mlv app does not import dng files.
Update: I directly imported dng files into the resolve ver18. seems there is no af red dot. will test more.
Update: I imported the whole folder of several hundreds of dng files into resolve as one clip, rendered it. did not see af red dots. hope this works for different scenarios. resolve is very fast at importing and rendering.
Update: MLV can only holds one frame, not the whole session as others said. lossless dng writes fast.
Update: Somehow I found a 7-frame mlv file in my sd card folder containing 3000 lossless dng files. Not sure how this mlv file was recorded successfully.
Update: Just did a 2 min 5.2 k 1x1 timelapse, 3000 lossless dng files, imported and rendered as UHD 4k in resolve 18 free version. Importing time is instant. Rendering time is 10 minutes. Blender is about 5-10 times slower. Blender is multithreading, so Resolve must use gpu for rendering. No focusing pixel is seen in neat video. Adding some curve contrast, and some color, see if these will show up. Update: no focusing pixel shows up.
Update: Advanced bracket and intervometer seem not working together. FRSP seems always use 1/4 sec as the shutter speed, although I adjust the shutter speed in ml menu or in Canon Q menu.
Update: Change ISO Shift to full, then ISO and shutter speed change accordingly.

6k raw time lapse is fun! with this kind of resolution quality, 650d/700d can be intercut with the current best of the crop cinema cameras.
If HDR time lapse is possible on 650D/700D, probably I can get 18-20 stops 6k raw footage out from this small baby!

Update: The major issue of hdr timelapse is lacking of free hdr merging software on windows. On Linux seems there are working scripts. Unfortunately not for windows.
Luminance HDR 2.6.0 batch mode is not working on Windows, only 2.6.1 works, but there is only source code tar ball, no Windows installer. hdrmerge has successful linux script for batch processing, but not on windows, seems not on mac neither. 
But man, hdr 6k is really impressive for a single photo. I can push contrast to 100 in rawtherapee and still see the shade and cloud.

Update: For hdr photo shooting using ml advanced bracket, it is very difficult to determine the base photo's exposure. Currently, I use a manual focus lens at f16 and plus a 10 stop vari nd at 6 to 10 stops during sunlight daytime. Activate exposure sim and exposure overide, use the wheel to change shutter speed to 1/8 sec. The ml advanced bracket seems to always set the base picture's shutter speed to 1/4 sec. But if I set the shutter speed to 1/4 sec, it uses 1/2 sec, something like that. So I use 1/8 sec to respect the ml default value. ISO set to 100, then check the liveview, if the ettr histogram is within the range of -0.5 to +0.5, I use intervometer to record several test sets. if it looks normal, then for long hdr timelapse series. This workflow seems working fine for me right now.

hdrmerge batch mode relies on time to group the brackets. Will test brackets with long interval time to see if it works. Or maybe the code cannot determine the windows time system, but can do so on linux. Not sure yet. Update: Tried it every 5 minutes per bracket, the batch mode of hdrmerge still did not work. So it is about the code not recognizing the windows time system.

Since I have a 5d3, I will repurpose the 650d for time lapse. 650D can be a A cam or B cam for event shooting, due to its flip lcd, high res color liveview.

Update:
Even HDR timelapse is possible for batch processing on Linux, it consumes a lot of time. If every 30 sec per bracket, it is about 1 minute footage 1500 brackets for 12 hours daytime. Night time it will be longer exposure and fewer brackets.
For single photo timelapse, for daytime, 1 minute footage 1500 photos take about 2 to 3 hours to complete. On resolve, about 5 minutes to render 1 minute 4k video. On Blender is about 1 hour to render the same 1500 photos. However, Blender can go to 8k or above if wanted.

Update:
On 650D, video mode, choose full resolution live view preset, mlv raw 1.1 seems not working right with this preset, but turning off mlv raw 1.1, turning on mlv raw 2.0, this preset works. 5.2k raw at 2 fps, this means 1 minute time lapse footage 1500 photos can be taken in 10 minutes. This makes 5.2k raw time lapse much more practical.
Not sure if the quality of full res live view video preset is the same as the photo mode full res silent pic. If the quality is comparable, this is about 10 times to 20 times faster acquisition.
If this video full res live view preset works on 5d3, 7 fps means another 3 to 4 times faster acquisition.

FRSP mode has its own advantage, can go to 30 sec shutter speed, whereas FRLV mode can only go as slow as  to 1/30 sec.




Update: Magic Lantern is full of magic!
I just did a rough test using Crop Mode (Alex's module, Bil's port on 650D)'s full resolution preset, Raw MLV 2.0 module, AR 2.67, both module 10 bit. I could get 6 fps (no fps overide by me) continuously green indicator, 10% idle, and it is about 90 MB/s writing speed. So this mode probably bypass the liveview activity and use photo mode's writing speed for time lapse, which is basically a video mode. Also, the shutter speed seems to be able to reach to 12k?! I will see if the mlv files are normal. Surprise, surprise, surprise!

In this mode, I set the fps to 12 in the crop mode module, then set 3840, ar 2.67, it can record more than 1 min. If lj92 lossless compression and 300 mb/s sd card can be integrated into this mode, uhd 4k raw ar 2.67 18-24 fps is possible. At 16 fps, after recording 10 seconds, it starts to drop frame. So if the recording time is short, it may go to 24 fps with lj92 and uhs2 sd cards.

16 fps uhd 1x1 raw can be converted to 24 fps in resolve, without creating much artifacts. Actually most early movies and later super 8 movies are 16-18 fps. So here it is, uhd 1x1 on 650d/700d/eosm/100d.

This penalty is the loss of liveview. A setup similar to Rollei's DLR camera can be used to solve this issue. On a cage, mount two cameras, with identical lenses, with identical parameters, one for 4k raw recording, another for evf. If using identical ML cameras like eosm or 650d/700d, one can be disabled for ml and sd overclocking for sometime, just for evf; at the same time, use sd overclock on another one to record 4k raw. After 2-4 hours, take turns, then there is no issue for overheating.
5D3 is 50% faster than 700D/650D, so DCI 4K raw 24 p is possible, if liveview is totally bypassed. Dual 5D3 cage can impress others, no less than a Red One or an Alexa XT. LOL.


Update:
This mode has a shutter range of 1/30 sec to 1/4000 sec. I don't know how I could get 1/12k yesterday. Will explore more in the future.
1x, 5x, have no liveview, but 10x has liveview, but recording in 10x is actually changed to 2.5k 30 fps. so in order to get 5.2k time lapse, has to go back to the unzoom mode.  choosing raw 2.0 mlv to 14 bit, results in error of "card full/ram". 12 bit and 10 bit are good.
I am happy with 10 bit 5.2k 1x1 raw 6 fps, it has some time lapse effect, yet not needing so much time to wait. It will be my 650d's new dedicated mode.



if 5d3 has such a mode, 5d3 may do 5.7k 1x1 10 bit 14 bit lossless ar 2.67 at 16 fps, with pp, 5d3 can be a 5.7k 1x1 video camera. voila.

5d3's 14 bit raw is about 20 mb per frame, then 10 bit raw is about 14 mb/frame, applying lj92 lossless compression, ideally about 7 mb/frame. considering ar 2.67, this even further lowers the frame size. so 24 frames/sec, total data flow is about 150 to 170 mb/sec. with the future 240 mhz sd overclocking and uhs ii sd cards, 5.7k 10 bit 14 bit lossless 24 p ar 2.67 for several seconds is very possible. just need another camera as an evf.

650d/700d's 14 bit raw is about 18 mb per frame, then 10 bit raw is about 12 mb/frame, applying lj92 lossless compression, ideally about 6 mb/frame. considering ar 2.67, this even further lowers the frame size to 4 mb or less. so 24 frames/sec, total data flow is about 100 mb/sec. with the uhs ii sd cards, 5.2k 10 bit 14 bit lossless 18-24 p ar 2.67 for several seconds is very possible. just need another camera as an evf.


Update:

Just played this mode more, probably I was over excited. With the increasing of the fps, the width maintains at 5200, but the vertical pixel reduces.
I was lucky to set ar 2.67 and it just covered the 5200x1900 at fps 6. At fps 12, UHD or DCI 4k 1x1 can have ar 2.67 to 2.5. Higher fps means smaller vertical pixel and wider ar.
In Crop mode v2, if I set the width to 3840, when the frame rate is set to 18 fps, the vertical pixel can reach to exactly ar 2.67. Recording 10 bit requires 120 mb/s, reduce to 16 fps, can record 3-5 seconds.
In Crop mode v2, if I set the width to 3840, when the frame rate is set to 16 fps, the vertical pixel can reach to exactly ar 2.4.
So UHD 1X1, ar 2.4, 16 fps, probably is the best 650d can go. Then use resolve to convert 16 fps to 24 fps.

[mlrocks]

I just tested 5.2k 1x3 mode, 1736x2214, 10 bit, 14-bit lossless, ar 2.4. Three hacks on, sd overclock to 240 mhz, canon q menu to raw, 170 mb/s sandisk extreme pro sd card.
It is not stable every time. Sometimes it is several seconds. But when it works, the recording time can be over 1 minute, and the indicator is orange.
AR 2.67 is much more stable. AR 2.67 is one of Hollywood's traditional AR values.
This is huge. Basically 650D/700D is a Red One now. I bet that 650D/700 5.2k 1x3 10 bit uncompressed raw mode is equal to Red One 4k raw with a compression ratio of 8 or 12. Many Red One projects were shot with a compression ratio of 8 or 12. Only a fraction of Red One projects like high end big theatre features or those need green screen were shot with a compression ratio of 3.
Alexa Classic highest resolution is 2.8k uncompressed raw. 650D/700 5.2k 1x3 10 bit uncompressed raw is about 2.8k to 3k resolution. Both sensor sizes are super 35mm. At least from this stand point, 650D/700D is an equivalent to Alexa classic.
Of course, Red One and Alexa Classic may have advantages like less rolling shutter, greater dynamic range, etc. However, in controlled environment, there are traditional ways to handle these issues.
How many blockbuster features were shot by Alexa Classic or Red One? Nobody complained about the resolution of these cameras. So is the 650d/700d!
Think about it. There are no more than 10,000 Alexa Classic or Red One in the world. Yet there are 10 million of 650D/700D/100D/EOSM. All of these can be used for Hollywood level feature making. There will be no barrier for cinematography in terms of camera.
Thanks a lot to Bil and other ML gurus.

[mlrocks]

Hopefully some day Bil may turn these 700D/650D/100D/EOSM into UHD 1x1 10bit 24p raw camera. Resolution wise, they will totally match the Red One's best R3D codec, and surpass the Alexa Classic.

[mlrocks]

With 500 dollars, get an EOS-M for raw recording, a 650d/700d for evf due to its swivel lcd, and a cage. This gig can pump out super 35mm 5k 10 bit 24p pixel by pixel uncompressed true raw, beats anything else below $2000. Remember, only ML raw and Arriraw are uncompressed true raw. All other "raw" formats are just codec, including braw, r3d, prores raw. All of the 10 bit 8 bit c-log, s-log, v-log, om-log are just halflings.
The same can be done for 5d3, spending $1000 to get a 5d3 for raw recording, and a 6d for evf due to its cheaper price, and a cage. It is a vista vision 6k 1x1 10 bit 24p true raw rig.
ML makes these 10 year old cameras up against the latest and the best. This is the beauty of open source free platform, just like linux/debian, etc.

[mlrocks]

I like both Danne and Bil ml builds. Dannes 5d3 build is very production oriented. Bil's 650d build is very research oriented, has a lot of room, and a lot of fun to explore.

On 5D3, my dedicated mode is anamorphic 5.7k 1x3, 14 bit, 14 bit lossless, ar 2.67, 24 fps, sound on, card spanning, sd overclock 160 mhz, robustly continuous recording.

On 650d, my dedicated mode is full res 5.2k 1x1, no live view, 6 fps, 10 bit, ar 2.67, continuous recording.

[mlrocks]

UHD 1X1, ar 2.4, 16 fps, probably is the best 650d can go. Then use resolve to convert 16 fps to 24 fps.

[mlrocks]

If 650d maximum readout is 5 fps x 18 mb = 90 mb/s
and
if LJ92 lossless compression affects readout

Then probably the current limits of the crop2 module are at the code level, instead of at the hardware level.

If so,

rewriting crop2 and raw 2.0 mlv may help 650d to get 4k 1x1 24p or even 5k 1x1 24p.

[mlrocks]

I gradually realize that 5d3 is better than 650d almost in every mode, including time lapse. The real strength of 650d is its flip lcd and realtime high res color liveview. So 650d is actually more suitable in eng style than 5d3.

I tried 14 bit uhd 1x3 ar 16-9 24p, for a typical wide angle scene with tree leaves and fence, it is 75 mb/s, green, 1% idle. 
I also just found out a very useful way to see information. Press info button to get into the second user interface, not only you will see the real shutter speed value, you see the correct real time high res color liveview like typical canon style. Stay in this user interface when shooting movie, then activate waveform, histogram, vectoscope, false color to user interface 1 ml global view. Now by only push the info button, you see all the important graphs. This is very convenient.

I also tried 10 bit 5.2k 1x3 ar 2.67 24p, it is 75 mb/s, green, 1% idle. If using an UHS ii sd card, probably 12 bit 5.2k 1x3 ar 2.4 24p can be continuous in some scenes. Without liveview, the writing speed is 100 mb/s, uhd 1x1 10 bit 16 fps ar 2.67 may record for more than several seconds.

[mlrocks]

Hope everyone who reads my post and appreciate my sharing on the knowledge and tips based on my real world experience to donate to Bil for his work on 650d and mostly importantly to encourage him to port the live view to 5d3. Thanks a lot.