Any thoughts on this idea?

Started by garry23, February 19, 2021, 11:49:17 PM

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Please read the comments in that link.  I mostly agree with them.  It may help with a little bit better composition in the long end but not much more.

By the way, ML on the EOS-M, the 100D, the 5D3 and other models too has this function already in the video mode.  You just press the SET button (Zoom button on the 5D3) and your camera enters 3x crop mode immediately.  I find it much more convenient than using the zoom ring on a zoom lens.  This works quite well with prime lenses for event videography.  If I use my favorite EF 35/F2 IS lens in the 3x3 or 1x3 full sensor readout mode, it turns it into a stabilized 105 mm lens in the 1x1 mode on a push of a button and without loss of image quality. 

Walter Schulz

@a1ex: Have you checked if KR zoom implemented by ML violates any patent granted to KR?



QuoteBy the way, ML on the EOS-M, the 100D, the 5D3 and other models too has this function already in the video mode.

Yes I know, that's why I posted the link, as I thought some may be interested in the claim of a 'new' idea ;-)

Walter Schulz

Well, it is getting some sort of complicated by the fact this implementation has its origin in KR.


I don't get it.. what is the new idea in this? Why not crop in post?
once you go raw you never go back


Quote from: Kharak on February 20, 2021, 12:22:40 PM
Why not crop in post?

Exactly. Feature request denied  :P

It seems like it would be awfully sensitive once the crop zoom kicks in. You will also lose image quality once the crop zoom kicks in.

garry23  Marcio K • 15 hours ago
Not at all. This does not patent digital zoom. It patents using the optical zoom ring to control added digital zoom based on the position of the optical zoom ring. That graph up there shows it all. (I'm the inventor and patent attorney who wrote the patent).

Quoted from the OP link ;-)


"Fancy" digital zoom, is still just digital zoom.

QuoteRockwell explains using a 100-400mm lens as an example. He says that in this particular example, a camera would shoot normally (full-frame) from the 100-300mm range of that lens but as the photographer approaches the 400mm end, the camera would intelligently apply an APS-C crop until the full zoom length is reached, effectively turning the final zoom into 800mm.

In other words, 3/4 of the optical zoom = 100-300mm, whereas the last 1/4 of optical zoom = 300-800mm.

The 16-35mm example is even betterer. 3/4 of optical zoom = 16-30mm, whereas the last 1/4 = 30-75mm. In either case, 1/4 of the optical zoom adjustment creates a massive zoom adjustment over that narrow range.

When it comes to quality, more pixels capturing image = better quality. This effectively creates a situation where the "system" uses digital zoom instead of optical zoom. The graph is a good example. At 162mm of optical zoom, this "system" will create an image with an effective zoom of 200mm, using digital zoom, instead of the available optical zoom.


It's a gimmick. And they want to cash in on it.

Walter Schulz

A gimmick that doesn't even exist.
He is talking about doing it by firmware update. He doesn't have the technology or even the right to change existing firmware.

And I may be wrong but because part of the technology already exists (electronic zoom) the only part he could claim is linking focus movement to electronic zoom. Any other method to activate electronic zoom won't be covered. Any other method than firmware update to make it run won't be covered.
-> Aiming camera manufacturers planing to implement it. This is trolling.


Quote from: Walter Schulz on February 20, 2021, 05:31:04 PM
Any other method than firmware update to make it run won't be covered.

I don't think that part has any effect on the patent per se, simply that this is patent trolling, and specifically requires the manufacturers to implement it.

Hence the statement......

QuoteThat is of course after it has been licensed from Rockwell and Langlotz. Rockwell is encouraging those interested in the feature to contact Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Fujifilm directly and ask for this feature, and has provided Langlotz's contact information that can be sent to these companies as part of that request.

Crowd-sourcing patent trolling. What a world we live in.

Aperture Science

I don't see why not crop afterward XD
Cropping afterward will also give a larger tolerance on composition for me.

However maybe useful on video recording with prime lens like IDA said.

Walter Schulz

Quote from: Audionut on February 20, 2021, 06:19:12 PM
Crowd-sourcing patent trolling. What a world we live in.

Wishful thinking: ML devs come up with something spoiling their fun for good. Something pushing their trolling to kingdom come without putting ML project between law and patent.
Sadly: Even if there should be something ML can do there are still Nikon, Sony, Fuji, ...
On the lighter side: Interesting times! I'm siding with Sony ...


Something like this?

while true do
  if lens.focal_length == lens.focal_length_max then

The script won't run out of the box - one still has to expose crop_rec API to Lua and to hardcode (or find out) the focal length limits.

Since changing the pixel binning mode is not quite the same as digital zoom, the above script probably won't infringe the patent - but IANAL.

The following script - which implements KR's original idea, might be infringing, though:

while true do
  -- map:
  zoom = map(lens.focal_length, lens.focal_length_max * 3/4 + lens.focal_length_min * 1/4, lens.focal_length_max, 1.00, 2.00);
  -- constrain:
  zoom = constrain(zoom, 1.0, 2.0);
  -- 600D, maybe also 70D: Canon's "digital zoom" is either 1x (3x3 pixel binning with line skipping), or 3...10x (1:1 crop)
  -- set_digital_zoom can be implemented as: property.DIGITAL_ZOOM_RATIO:request_change(math.floor(zoom * 300), 4);
  -- it can be hacked to work continuously from 1x to 10x, but... it's kinda pointless ;)



Considering he shoots 5-10 megapixel JPEGs on most cameras, this is a great idea. Ken has found a way to make high resolution sensors useful in his world. So congratulations to him :D


One more useful idea imo incorporated already from @theBilalfakhouri is the one zooming the full live preview while recording but for focusing purposes only. Actually first time I've seen it being done in a cam in his presets.