Author Topic: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?  (Read 1169 times)

yourboylloyd

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Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« on: July 09, 2020, 09:20:32 PM »
Hello ML community,

I'm considering pre-ordering the EOS R6 but I need some help.

The R6 can do 10bit 422 h.265 with log. I've been shooting 10bit RAW on my 5d2 and I was wondering what would be the difference between the two formats? They technically both should be able to provide 1024-colors per channel right? So why do some people consider RAW a better option? Is it solely due to h.265 compression? Can I change the white balance in post like I do with my 10bit raw footage? I've never worked with 10bit footage before that wasn't RAW.

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masc

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2020, 09:39:44 PM »
h.265 has burned in white balance and is already debayered and lossy compressed. RAW is untouched sensor data.
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Volumetrik

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2020, 09:52:11 PM »
h.265 has burned in white balance and is already debayered and lossy compressed. RAW is untouched sensor data.

To bounce off of what masc said, you're trading the lossy compression of H265 for file size. Raw video, regardless of 10, 12 or 14 bit (even lossless) will produce much larger file sizes than H265. The workflow is also different for RAW and H265. Since H265 is very efficient in compressing the image, editing H265 files have to be GPU accelerated to be edited and will require very large computing power to playback and scrub through. Especially with 4k60 stuff. Raw DNG sequences like our MLV's can be accelerated and scrubbed through with much less computing power.

Finally, you could deliver straight out of camera with H265, but with RAW, you'll always need to post-process it before delivering it.

yourboylloyd

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2020, 10:14:47 PM »
Thanks guys for the clarity. I'm probably going to pre-order it anyway just because there isn't any better option out there anyway.

I feel that my setup can handle the compression. But I was just curious about the grading of the footage and if there was any difference between the actual 10bit data between the two. I think you guys cleared it up.
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koljanych

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2020, 09:32:24 AM »
In the second case (MLV), all color information is linear. in the first case, the range is compressed, gamma correction is performed (709, LOG, HDR PQ)
Thus 10 bit MLV will store a smaller dynamic range than 10 bit LOG. The shadows will be dark, without detail. But automatic compression to the LOG can lose some details, highlights that are important and that will be present in RAW

allemyr

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2020, 01:33:04 PM »
Thanks guys for the clarity. I'm probably going to pre-order it anyway just because there isn't any better option out there anyway.

Well if you still want raw check out the BMD Pocket 4k with a speedbooster for EF lensen, the most important thing can't be the Canon badge on the camera body,

2blackbar

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2020, 05:43:17 PM »
sigma fp does raw

Dmytro_ua

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2020, 10:41:27 AM »
None of these have Canon's DP Autofocus.
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yourboylloyd

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2020, 11:36:09 AM »
In the second case (MLV), all color information is linear. in the first case, the range is compressed, gamma correction is performed (709, LOG, HDR PQ)
Thus 10 bit MLV will store a smaller dynamic range than 10 bit LOG. The shadows will be dark, without detail. But automatic compression to the LOG can lose some details, highlights that are important and that will be present in RAW

That makes sense. I think I kinda already figured as much. I believe there is an option to shoot 10 bit linear on the camera as well so I will be testing both out. I hate grading 8bit log, but 10bit might prove a lot more fun.
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yourboylloyd

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2020, 11:39:42 AM »
Well if you still want raw check out the BMD Pocket 4k with a speedbooster for EF lensen, the most important thing can't be the Canon badge on the camera body,

sigma fp does raw

Sigma FP and BMPCC 4k/6k doesn't have DPAutoFocus or IBIS or a flip screen. Sigma has no headphonejack BM isn't full frame. These cameras suck in comparison to the R6 except for the write to an SSD feature.
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allemyr

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2020, 12:08:45 PM »
Sigma FP and BMPCC 4k/6k doesn't have DPAutoFocus or IBIS or a flip screen. Sigma has no headphonejack BM isn't full frame. These cameras suck in comparison to the R6 except for the write to an SSD feature.

When you use a speedbooster on Pocket 4k the focal lenght is very close at 1.22x so a 35mm EF lens becomes a 42,7mm lens. If you want a flipout screen and IBIS then the R6 is a better buy. But remember that the Pocket 4k and a Viltrox sppedbooster is almost half the price of a Canon R6.

Dont bother with image quality with the 5D2 and 10-bit raw on ML is very noisy and the color isnt as good as 14 or 12 bit.

yourboylloyd

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2020, 02:14:35 PM »
remember that the Pocket 4k and a Viltrox sppedbooster is almost half the price of a Canon R6.

Thanks for the tip! I always wanted the pocket4k. But then I shot on a c300 for a shoot and having dualpixelautofocus blew my mind. As a filmmaker, I've never considered manual focusing being unnatural until then. I shot on an 85mm f1.4 and it didn't lose focus once! Plus love movement, hate tripods and hate gimbals so Ibis would be awesome too. The R6 seems to be the perfect camera right now.

Dont bother with image quality with the 5D2 and 10-bit raw on ML is very noisy and the color isnt as good as 14 or 12 bit.

That isn't true at all. There is actually no point in shooting in 14bit or 12bit. From experience and proof. See: https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=24933.msg226106#msg226106
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muanthang

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2020, 07:46:25 PM »
Canon EOS R5 SPECIFICATION
Camera Type: Mirrorless
Announced: 9th July 2020
Sensor: 45Mp Full-frame Dual Pixel CMOS AF II
Processor: Digic X
Lens mount: RF
Sensitivity range: Stills: ISO 100-51,200 expandable to ISO 50-102,400, Movies: ISO 100-25600, expandable to ISO ISO 51,200
Canon EOS R5 formats: Raw + Jpeg/HEIF, MP4
Maximum continuous shooting rate: Mechanical shutter: 12fps, Electronic shutter: 20fps
Maximum video resolution: Uncropped, internal raw recording 8K video at up to 29.97fps in 4:2:2 10-bit in Canon Log (H.265) or 4:2:2 10-bit HDR PQ (H.265), Uncropped internal recording 4K video at up to 119.88fps in 4:2:2 10-bit in Canon Log (H.265) or 4:2:2 10-bit HDR PQ (H.265) 4:2:2 10-bit in Canon Log or 4:2:2 10-bit HDR PQ, 4K output over HDMI at up to 59.94fps
Autofocus system: Dual Pixel CMOS AF II phase detection with 5940 points in stills and 4500 points in movie mode
Viewfinder: 0.5-inch 5.76million-dot OLED electronic viewfinder with 120fps display and 0.76x magnification
Screen: 3.15-inch 2.1-million dot vari-angle touchscreen
Autofocus: Dual Pixel CMOS AF II with Advanced Animal AF (recognising dogs, cats and birds) supported in all video modes with 100% coverage and up to 1053 ‘AF segments’
Stabilisation: In-body image stabilisation (IBIS) that works with lens IS and enables up to 8-stops of shutter speed compensation
Storage: Dual slots, 1x CFexpress, 1x SDXC UHS-II
Dimensions: 135.8 x 97.5 x 88mm
Weight: 650 g / 738 g with card and battery

Luther

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2020, 05:37:36 AM »
I'm quite impressed by this R5 camera. And after working many years on this area you don't get easily impressed...
Does anyone has a 'open gate' sample footage (full res raw output)? If it wasn't so expensive, that camera would completely kill like 1/3 of the cinema camera industry.

allemyr

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2020, 08:59:21 AM »
I think its interesting and waiting to see how the R6 170mbit looks like, hopefully it looks good and Sonys A7 series limit on 100 mbit for UHD is a joke. Hopefully R6 and 170mbit is enough and you don't need ALL I as the R5 has.

yourboylloyd

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2020, 05:40:42 PM »
Yeah hopefully it's good without All-I. I think just having the option of 10bit 422 should be able to make it a netflix approved camera.
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allemyr

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Re: Help with understanding. 10bit H.265 vs 10bit RAW?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2020, 08:15:26 PM »
Yeah hopefully it's good without All-I. I think just having the option of 10bit 422 should be able to make it a netflix approved camera.

Yes shure but 170mbit is still 170mbit, might look good tho lets wait and see. And the R5 is alwayd an option if you is not satisfied with R6. I agree that ibis and dual autofocus is very great