Author Topic: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?  (Read 4946 times)

Walter Schulz

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7616
Re: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2020, 11:55:27 PM »
M3 = Canon EOS M3 or Canon EOS 5D Mark III?

Milk and Coffee

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2020, 04:14:29 AM »
1x and fullframe is different things. If you going to shoot fullframe i can recommed the M3, maybe its still expensice tho idk.

I'm not sure what the confusion always is, but I thought it was standard to talk about crop factor/focal length multiplier 1.0x as full frame. As its commonly used this way with many other photography resources (and in ML menus.) Did you think I meant 1:1? I believe the difference (and correct me if I'm wrong) is a period vs colon ( . ) ( : ) The period is a factor, and the colon is a ratio.
Gear: Canon 5D Mark II

names_are_hard

  • Contributor
  • Senior
  • *****
  • Posts: 294
  • 200D idiot
Re: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2020, 04:37:48 AM »
Part of the confusion is that standard photography resources rarely (never?) consider only "exposing" a portion of the film!  They certainly don't consider exposing every third pixel, etc.  Fullframe sounds like "the whole sensor" to me, in the world of digital...  is there even a traditional photography term for not covering the whole sensor / film?  When you can select arbitrary portions of the sensor to record, and still have a focal length multiplier of 1.0x, what does it mean?

allemyr

  • Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
Re: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2020, 01:26:44 PM »
M3 = Canon EOS M3 or Canon EOS 5D Mark III?

Yes haha good confusion i made, 5D Mark III yes.

And on topic I would worry about upscaling small portion its a quality decrease to go from 1880 to 1920 width, isnt it better to upload with blackborders around?

Kharak

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 976
Re: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2020, 08:42:18 PM »
Part of the confusion is that standard photography resources rarely (never?) consider only "exposing" a portion of the film!  They certainly don't consider exposing every third pixel, etc.  Fullframe sounds like "the whole sensor" to me, in the world of digital...  is there even a traditional photography term for not covering the whole sensor / film?  When you can select arbitrary portions of the sensor to record, and still have a focal length multiplier of 1.0x, what does it mean?

If you shoot with anamorphic glass, you can use the entire 3:2 / 4:3 sensor, what have you.

Personally, I feel that because the entire width of the sensor is always used, lets say from 5D3, 3:2 36x24 sensor. Be it 16:9 or 2:35.1, you have the entire width of the sensor giving that awesome space. It is not "Full" Frame, but its the entire width of it.

EDIT: regarding the anamorphic. Funny, you shoot Full Frame 3:2 sensor with a 1.5x Anamorphic only to squeze it down by 50% and plaster it on a 16:9 screen ;)
once you go raw you never go back

Milk and Coffee

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2020, 06:17:44 AM »
If you shoot with anamorphic glass, you can use the entire 3:2 / 4:3 sensor, what have you.

Personally, I feel that because the entire width of the sensor is always used, lets say from 5D3, 3:2 36x24 sensor. Be it 16:9 or 2:35.1, you have the entire width of the sensor giving that awesome space. It is not "Full" Frame, but its the entire width of it.

EDIT: regarding the anamorphic. Funny, you shoot Full Frame 3:2 sensor with a 1.5x Anamorphic only to squeze it down by 50% and plaster it on a 16:9 screen ;)

Kharak, what do you mean when you say “it is not ‘full’ frame?” Are you referring to the decrease in vertical resolution of 16:9 and 2.35:1 compared to 3:2? Or are you saying that 36x24mm digital sensors are smaller compared to that of 36x24mm film?
Gear: Canon 5D Mark II

Milk and Coffee

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2020, 10:35:13 PM »
It's really nothing, it's less then 1%, it's a non-issue.
In real world, nobody could tell there are 16 pixels missing on the side.

But here some more to think about  ;D :
The 6d can use the whole sensor width, which is 1824 pixels in 3x3 mode.
The 5d2 can do 1856 pixels(without black border) in 3x3 mode.
So 5d2 has 32 pixels more in 3x3 mode...what do you want more pixels nobody will notice, or more field of view nobody will notice  :P
But there is more, search in google for the real sensor size of the 6d and you will find out it's not 36mm like the 5d2, but slightly smaller, the 6d has an 35.8mm wide sensor  ???
So we're missing slightly field of view on the full-frame 6d, have you ever heard anyone wine about that, exactly, it's so small, no problem  :P

But there is another catch here, what we call whole sensor width, is actually whole width of sensor used in photo mode.
But as we know, there are unused pixels on the side of the sensors, the black borders.
Canon 5d2 has a 160 pixels wide black column on the left side and the 6d 'only' has 80 black pixels wide column on the left side...

So if we all sum these up, I think it's fair to say they can both film in full frame a.k.a 1.0 crop factor  8)

@Levas, Canon markets the 5D2 as 5616px full width/full res for stills. Plus it's black borders are thicker than the 6D's. Can you explain why Canon crops/pads the sensor in standard firmware? Doesn't the padding, and thicker black borders effectively make the 5D2 sensor 35.8mm x 23.9mm? Why would canon add this random padding?
Gear: Canon 5D Mark II

names_are_hard

  • Contributor
  • Senior
  • *****
  • Posts: 294
  • 200D idiot
Re: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2020, 12:04:25 AM »
You'd probably have to ask Canon's engineers.  It won't be random really, there'll be some engineering reason.  Slightly better sensor noise, or perhaps higher performance due to some quirk of a bus (1824 * 3 is 64 aligned).  Or more prosaically, perhaps the spec sheet for the sensor simply says that's how you're supposed to read it, so when they integrated it they followed the instructions to the letter.  This kind of quirky looking stuff happens all the time when designing hardware.

reddeercity

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2267
Re: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2020, 01:36:55 AM »
The active area of the sensor on the 5d2 is 36x24mm with out the black broader , you are making this too complicated.
You are being confused by the 3x3 pixel format to get a full frame HD image and by "Full Frame" i mean the view of
the total width of the sensor . For the 5D2 it's 1877.33333333333333333 (5632/3) and it's reads out on 4 channel at the same time .
So there no crop factor in 3x3 on the 5D2 ,  the 6D has a 1.01 crop factor because canon decided to have it that way or the sensor
did not turn out as expected , maybe the photocell on the edge of the sensor or dead etc. ... so there trimmed it down ? maybe only Canon know for sure .

Levas

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1671
  • 6d - Nightly build user
Re: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?
« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2020, 10:25:01 AM »
@Levas, Canon markets the 5D2 as 5616px full width/full res for stills. Plus it's black borders are thicker than the 6D's. Can you explain why Canon crops/pads the sensor in standard firmware? Doesn't the padding, and thicker black borders effectively make the 5D2 sensor 35.8mm x 23.9mm? Why would canon add this random padding?

I'm not sure why you are worrying so much about such small details, I wouldn't base or let depend any camera purchase on such tiny small details.
But why Canon uses blackborders, we could only guess. (I think most, if not all, sensors out there for photography/video use this ).
It's probably a mix of technical and commercial reasons.
The 6d sensor is a tiny bit smaller, maybe for 6d they could fit one sensor more per silicon wafer, which makes it a little cheaper to produce.

To be honest, they could have go for 35.5 x 23.5 mm and still call it 36 x 24 mm full-frame. It's not lying.
35.5 = 36  that's how math works.

The black borders are there to improve your picture, if they had no use, they wouldn't put them up there.
The black border are probably used for calibrating stuff and so reducing noise.

Just for fun, how creatively manufactures can use megapixels and resolution.
The sigma Foveon camera's have sensors that are sort of 3 sensors stacked on top of each other.
The top level records only blue pixels, middle part records only green pixels and bottom part records only red pixels.
Now to advertise number of megapixels, they sum up all the pixels from all three layers.
So for example the Sigma Quatro is advertised as 29.5megapixel.
How does the sensor look, toplayer = 5440x3616 - middle layer = 2720x1808 - bottom layer = 2720x1808
So the highest resolution layer is about 20megapixel, but all three layers together are advertised as 29.5megapixel.
https://www.sigma-global.com/en/cameras/sd-series/specifications/

Camcorder manufacturers did the same for 3-sensor camera's. Once Full-HD became a thing, there were camera's out there with 3 sensors where each sensor 'only' had about 800.000 pixels. So each sensor was slightly more then standard definition. But since they used 3 of these sensors, each recording either red, green or blue. They could add the numbers and claim Full-HD resolution.

Milk and Coffee

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?
« Reply #60 on: June 23, 2020, 10:14:27 PM »
Sorry I'm getting so caught up in this! I guess my curiosity gets the best of me! Thanks for all the useful info, and well made points! @reddeercity, the highest 3x3 horizontal resolution in the 10/12bit build is 1856px. Is 1872px available in your experimental Crop_rec build?
Gear: Canon 5D Mark II

allemyr

  • Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
Re: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2020, 10:09:03 AM »
Sorry I'm getting so caught up in this! I guess my curiosity gets the best of me! Thanks for all the useful info, and well made points! @reddeercity, the highest 3x3 horizontal resolution in the 10/12bit build is 1856px. Is 1872px available in your experimental Crop_rec build?

Just want to point that out since those wide pixels is on topic. First thing I would think that it doesnt matter for quality if its 1856 px or 1872 px you still need some upscaling in post and upscaling is a tiny bit of quality loss. I would watch videos and find a video you like the quality off and check that workflow and recording settings. The 5D3 records 1920 wide. But here in Sweden it looks like its still expensive almost twice as 5D2.

Milk and Coffee

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is MLV using the full width of the sensor?
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2020, 08:03:34 PM »
@Levas , I have a 5D2 and yes a cr2 is 5616 but the FRSP is 5632 , and there must be some padding in canon firmware .
Also I check the Image dump from my 5D2 & 3x3 raw image is indeed 1880 not 1872 or 1877 as I said ,
there's 3 pixel from somewhere , maybe some padding ?
In the zip file there is 3 files the 3x3 ml raw dump , DNG ,  the converted dng ->.ppm file from exiftool & the converted .ppm -> .png
5D2_True_3x3__Sensor_Size_5-12-2020.zip
Code: [Select]
File Name                       : RAW-001.DNG
Camera Model Name               : Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Software                        : Magic Lantern
Subfile Type                    : Full-resolution Image
Image Width                     : 2040
Image Height                    : 1268
Strip Offsets                   : 33792
Samples Per Pixel               : 1
Rows Per Strip                  : 1268
Strip Byte Counts               : 4526760
X Resolution                    : 180
Y Resolution                    : 180
Default Crop Origin             : 0 0
Default Crop Size               : 1880 1250
Active Area                     : 18 160 1268 2040
Image Size                      : 2040x1268
So if you pixel peep there no missing pixels that I can see .

In the Old Raw_Rec module (pre-2016) We had 1880 wide , before the speed penalty was found in D5 cam .

Found a CR2 and
Code: [Select]
Record Mode                     : CR2
Canon Image Type                : Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Canon Image Width               : 5616
Canon Image Height              : 3744
Raw Jpg Size                    : Large
Cropped Image Width             : 5616
Cropped Image Height            : 3744
Sensor Width                    : 5792
Sensor Height                   : 3804
Sensor Left Border              : 168
Sensor Top Border               : 56
Sensor Right Border             : 5783
Sensor Bottom Border            : 3799
Color Data Version              : 6 (50D/5DmkII)
Exif Image Width                : 5616
Exif Image Height               : 3744
Image Size                      : 5616x3744
Important info about Sensor
Cropped Image Width             : 5616
Cropped Image Height            : 3744
Sensor Width                         : 5792
Sensor Height                        : 3804
Sensor Left Border                 : 168
Sensor Top Border                 : 56
Sensor Right Border               : 5783
Sensor Bottom Border            : 3799

Magic Lantern uses less of a off set 160 compared to canon's 168 and the vertical canon does 58 where ML uses 18 offset
Also I did a OB Zone test here and it's 1880 so
mainly a coding issue . With Crop_Rec it's really a non issue now , with 1x3 , 3x1 etc. ....  :)

Just curious, but 1880 should technically be 8 pixels too much, 1872 pixels should be available.
So if you look real close, pixel peeping, you probably detect a very small border on the left or right, which exists out 8 pixels wide black border.

Just did a test. 5D2, 10/12bit build

I shot on a tripod, same exposure, lens, etc. Nothing changed but the MLV module.

MLV_rec has a maximum 3x3 resolution width of 1856px.
Original DNG here https://www.mediafire.com/view/6ziy3e7ajobq6we/mlv_rec-1856.dng/file

MLV_lite has a maximum 3x3 resolution width of 1880px.
Original DNG here https://www.mediafire.com/view/taqdx0kfihpvv6a/mlv_lite-1880.dng/file

Looks like the image offset has pixels missing on the right in mlv_rec.
See comparison here https://www.mediafire.com/view/xb7b6yy15k4tkzi/LITE-REC-Comparison.png/file

mlv_lite looks like image offsets are set correctly!

Via MLV_lite, at 1880, I did a shot of blue sky, wide open 50mm lens, focused as close as I could. No black borders for me anywhere! This is cool!
Original DNG here https://www.mediafire.com/view/3e3l87lr0akvjkh/M27-1926_000080.dng/file

And then some pixel peeping screenshots of the sky linked below.  :)
Top left: https://www.mediafire.com/view/5pui0n2fmvzn1vq/Screen_Shot_2020-06-28_at_11.52.16_AM.png/file
Bottom left: https://www.mediafire.com/view/f6m3hciq32s6gsp/Screen_Shot_2020-06-28_at_11.52.05_AM.png/file
Top right: https://www.mediafire.com/view/3woavny8mjs45k9/Screen_Shot_2020-06-28_at_11.51.44_AM.png/file
Bottom right: https://www.mediafire.com/view/jhs201hbgpiy3bg/Screen_Shot_2020-06-28_at_11.51.54_AM.png/file
Gear: Canon 5D Mark II