Author Topic: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2  (Read 2769 times)

Volumetrik

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MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« on: April 17, 2020, 09:55:20 PM »
I wanted to see for myself the differences that full frame MLV raw video bit depth does on the 5D2 so here is a quick test I did.

First the variables :

Canon 5D Mark II 2.1.2 w/94k actuations
Canon 35mm F/2 IS @ F/7
VAF 5D2 AA Filter
SanDisk ExtremePro 32Gb UDMA 7 160MB/s CF card

magiclantern-crop_rec-3k_Updated_Center_4.20pm-5D2-eXperimental.2019Nov14.5D2212 from Reddeercity
100 ISO
1866 x 1044 1.00x Crop @ 23.976 fps 1/50s

I shot the same scene with both highlights and shadows clipping so we can have a good sense of dynamic range.

Using the ML spot-meter, the sky is 100%, the wall in-between the two windows is 55% and the towel is 1%.

Here is an example of the ACR settings I used. I only changed two things : Highlights and Shadows



First test : ACR settings : -100 Highlights & +100 Shadows : This is an extreme test, you can see banding so this is not usable footage, but a good example.



Second test : ACR settings : -70 Highlights & +70 Shadows : This is the highest shadows I could push before seeing banding, so I would consider this the limit of usable footage.



You can click on the images to view in full resolution. Areas to look at are the electric baseboard as it shoes the color shifting very clearly. Towel shoes the banding and the wall in between the two windows shows the effects on middle exposure (55%).

EDIT : Here are the three original DNG's extracted from the folder MLVFS created : MLV Bit-Depth Test

Conclusion :

I found that the cleanest was the 14-Bit (not surprising) compared to the two others. However, this is not a continuous setting on the 5D2 as it starts skipping frames around 24-26 seconds. The 12-Bit sounds like a good compromise as I can pretty much get it continuous with sound. It does have a very slight color shift towards green in the -100+100 test and a bit more banding visible on the towel, but in the -70+70 it looks (to my eye) 99% the same as the 14-Bit. The 10-bit is the worst of the bunch (again, not surprising) but I was very surprised at the green color shifting in the shadows. It was much more visible than I anticipated. Finally, the banding is less severe in the towel, but the green noise takes over that whole area anyways. Overall, the highlight retention of all the bit depths seem to be roughly equal, as I cannot see a difference between them.

Conclusion of the conclusion :

I will be using the 12-bit for 95% of shooting scenarios, especially ones where I need longer takes than 24-26 seconds. I'll use 14-Bit if I am in a low-light situation where I know I will need to pull up exposure and shadows. Finally, I'll never touch 10-bit as the color shifting is too severe for my taste.

Hope you found my tests useful !

yourboylloyd

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Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2020, 10:27:23 PM »
You are awesome!  Thank you for the test! I love looking at tests like these.

I will be using the 12-bit for 95% of shooting scenarios, especially ones where I need longer takes than 24-26 seconds. I'll use 14-Bit if I am in a low-light situation where I know I will need to pull up exposure and shadows. Finally, I'll never touch 10-bit as the color shifting is too severe for my taste.

I've found the same thing that the quality features of 14bit are almost nothing compared to the solid benefits of just 12bit . Honestly in tests that I've done there usually is no difference between the 14bit and 12bit in dynamic range so I go with 12bit 95% of the time. However, when I have a LONG simple shoot I tend to go with 10bit. It's better than going with H.264 and I can get more vertical resolution for social media.

Overall, the highlight retention of all the bit depths seem to be roughly equal, as I cannot see a difference between them.

I think that because its cloudy that you got a little more uniform range. You should try to do the same test on a super bright day! My hypothesis is that the sky is only going to be slightly washed out and the shadows will turn green on the 10bit footage in those cases, but recoverable on the 12bit and 14bit.
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Volumetrik

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Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2020, 10:38:16 PM »
I think that because its cloudy that you got a little more uniform range. You should try to do the same test on a super bright day! My hypothesis is that the sky is only going to be slightly washed out and the shadows will turn green on the 10bit footage in those cases, but recoverable on the 12bit and 14bit.

Thanks for the feedback ! I will definitely try the bright sky test tomorrow using the same methodology.

For well exposed footage without the need for extended dynamic range, the 10-bit being fine is an interesting observation. I did not think of the extra vertical resolution you could add with the decreased data rate of the 10-bit !


reddeercity

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Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2020, 02:18:09 AM »
I can't agree here , I use 10bit all the time for 3x3 , 1:1 & crop_rec up to 5.6k
I haven't use 14 or 12 bit in a few years now .
I see 2 problems here
1st: VAF 5D2 AA Filter
a total waste of time & money it messes with image too much
2nd : Your exposure is not push far enough to the right or (ETTR)
on the 5d2 you need to over expose the hi-lights by at least 10% , special if
you are processing the Cdng with ACR (the hi-light are always recoverable)
this will produce very clean shadow etc. .... in 10& 12bit .
Plus the other thing that made a big difference is exposing (to get clean noise free shadow) to a log style picture style profile .
I use technicolor cinestyle picture style profile , there was some  Reverse Engineering done on it and other Log profiles
and the conclusion came that the technicolor cinestyle was a 10bit Log curve . you can read able it in the link below
https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=16299.msg158364#msg158364
If you use a Standard Picturestyle profile of any one other then log you are exposing to a rec709 space that clipping.
The 5D2 shines the best with a Log style environment (yes it take a few more steps but can produce a superior image to other camera even 5D3)

Take this with a gain of salt , it's just my opinion  :) - after 10 years of experience on this camera in the News/Documentary field .

Edit: Just to clear things up a bit , the reasons to use technicolor cinestyle for picturestyle profile on liveview
is a tool to help with the exposure to push hi-light for better D.R. with out crushing shadows .
In No Way Dose the PictureStyle Profile effect the Raw Image/video , it just to aid to do better ETTR .

ilia3101

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Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2020, 11:34:23 AM »
I think the VAf did a great job. I almost thought Adobe had some new amazing debayering. The lines look great with no aliasing and there's plenty of resolution. Easily as good as a 5D3.

1st: VAF 5D2 AA Filter
a total waste of time & money it messes with image too much

Surely it only messes with crop mode image?

@Volumetrik could you show me how crop mode looks with VAF, I'm curious to see how it actually messes with the image.

Kharak

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Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2020, 11:35:08 AM »
Thanks for the test, its nice to see the comparison first hand.

But I think you made a mistake in measuring the scene, ML Spotmeter does not measure the RAW data, unless you use RAW EV Meter.

 For a much faster and accurate scene reading, I recommend you expose with RAW Zebras and RAW Histogram, especially if you want to hit the sweet spot of ETTR to maximize the DR. You can clip the Green channel and still reconstruct the highlights with Blue and Red channel. In certain scenes you can clip two channels and still be able to retain the highlights with some Post magic, but clipping two channels I would only recommend for Sky or naturally super brights, not clothing or walls as it can introduce unwanted artifacts in the reconstructed areas. And never ever faces.

Could you post 1 DNG from each test sample?
once you go raw you never go back

Volumetrik

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Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2020, 03:06:07 PM »
I can't agree here , I use 10bit all the time for 3x3 , 1:1 & crop_rec up to 5.6k
I haven't use 14 or 12 bit in a few years now .
I see 2 problems here
1st: VAF 5D2 AA Filter
a total waste of time & money it messes with image too much
2nd : Your exposure is not push far enough to the right or (ETTR)
on the 5d2 you need to over expose the hi-lights by at least 10% , special if
you are processing the Cdng with ACR (the hi-light are always recoverable)
this will produce very clean shadow etc. .... in 10& 12bit .
Plus the other thing that made a big difference is exposing (to get clean noise free shadow) to a log style picture style profile .
I use technicolor cinestyle picture style profile , there was some  Reverse Engineering done on it and other Log profiles
and the conclusion came that the technicolor cinestyle was a 10bit Log curve . you can read able it in the link below
https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=16299.msg158364#msg158364
If you use a Standard Picturestyle profile of any one other then log you are exposing to a rec709 space that clipping.
The 5D2 shines the best with a Log style environment (yes it take a few more steps but can produce a superior image to other camera even 5D3)

Take this with a gain of salt , it's just my opinion  :) - after 10 years of experience on this camera in the News/Documentary field .

Edit: Just to clear things up a bit , the reasons to use technicolor cinestyle for picturestyle profile on liveview
is a tool to help with the exposure to push hi-light for better D.R. with out crushing shadows .
In No Way Dose the PictureStyle Profile effect the Raw Image/video , it just to aid to do better ETTR .

Thanks for the detailed response ! I will definitely try to overexpose even more the highlights in my next test.

I think the VAf did a great job. I almost thought Adobe had some new amazing debayering. The lines look great with no aliasing and there's plenty of resolution. Easily as good as a 5D3.

Surely it only messes with crop mode image?

@Volumetrik could you show me how crop mode looks with VAF, I'm curious to see how it actually messes with the image.

Yes that's a great idea, I will test the difference that the VAF 5D2 filter does on full frame and 2x 2.7/3k crop mode from the reddeercity build.

Thanks for the test, its nice to see the comparison first hand.

But I think you made a mistake in measuring the scene, ML Spotmeter does not measure the RAW data, unless you use RAW EV Meter.

 For a much faster and accurate scene reading, I recommend you expose with RAW Zebras and RAW Histogram, especially if you want to hit the sweet spot of ETTR to maximize the DR. You can clip the Green channel and still reconstruct the highlights with Blue and Red channel. In certain scenes you can clip two channels and still be able to retain the highlights with some Post magic, but clipping two channels I would only recommend for Sky or naturally super brights, not clothing or walls as it can introduce unwanted artifacts in the reconstructed areas. And never ever faces.

Could you post 1 DNG from each test sample?

Thank you for the exposing tips, I'll use the zebras from now on. Is there any special settings I need to modify within the zebras setting?

I will post the DNG samples from the three bit depths later today, that's a great idea!

EDIT : Here is the link for the DNG's : MLV Bit-Depth Test

Kharak

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Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2020, 04:41:06 PM »
Go to Sub-Menu of Zebras, under Overlay Tab.

'When Recording: Show' - Note: as you are on 5D2 this might decrease the recording time as it requires more processing of the 5D2, so you might want to set it to Hide.
'Use RAW Zebras: Always'  - this will also show you a high quality RAW zebra overlay in Image photo review, really helpful.
'RAW Underexposure: 0 EV'

once you go raw you never go back

Volumetrik

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Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2020, 05:47:23 PM »
Go to Sub-Menu of Zebras, under Overlay Tab.

'When Recording: Show' - Note: as you are on 5D2 this might decrease the recording time as it requires more processing of the 5D2, so you might want to set it to Hide.
'Use RAW Zebras: Always'  - this will also show you a high quality RAW zebra overlay in Image photo review, really helpful.
'RAW Underexposure: 0 EV'

Thank you very much ! Areas where I thought were clipping previously are now shown not clipping, this is great for ETTR.

I edited my Original post and my reply with links to the original DNG's.

yourboylloyd

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Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2020, 06:37:56 PM »

...VAF 5D2 AA Filter a total waste of time & money it messes with image too much...

the technicolor cinestyle is a 10bit Log curve . you can read able it in the link below
https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=16299.msg158364#msg158364


Didn't know about the technicolor cinestyle!! Thanks so much for that.

I def disagree on the AA Filter though. I have to warn people not to wear striped shirts and textured material on the 5D2 just because the aliasing is so bad for me. I was going to buy one, but that filter costs like $400 when I can just get a 5D3 on ebay for close to $700.
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Luther

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Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2020, 11:20:26 PM »
Edit: Just to clear things up a bit , the reasons to use technicolor cinestyle for picturestyle profile on liveview
is a tool to help with the exposure to push hi-light for better D.R. with out crushing shadows .
In No Way Dose the PictureStyle Profile effect the Raw Image/video , it just to aid to do better ETTR .
Just use the Raw Histogram.

Volumetrik

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Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2020, 12:03:32 AM »
Alright, I am back with a second test, this time concerning the highlights as mentionned by Reddeercity and yourboylloyd.

First the variables :

Canon 5D Mark II 2.1.2 w/94k actuations
Canon 35mm F/2 IS
VAF 5D2 AA Filter
SanDisk ExtremePro 32Gb UDMA 7 160MB/s CF card

magiclantern-crop_rec-3k_Updated_Center_4.20pm-5D2-eXperimental.2019Nov14.5D2212 from Reddeercity
100 ISO
1866 x 1044 1.00x Crop @ 23.976 fps 1/50s

Methodology :

I started with a very over-exposed sky and brought down the exposure by 1/3 ev using the aperture.

Test starts at f/6.4 and using the raw zebras as mentioned in the thread. I then pulled back two settings in ACR, exposure and Highlights. Exposure is brought down relatively to the aperture setting so that the resulting image is the same exposure across the board. Highlights are always pulled back @ -100.

I did two rounds, first at 10-bit and the second at 14-bit. Something that I encountered however during the recording is that the RAW zebras did not show while recording 10-bit footage. They were displaying fine while looking at live-view without recording, but as soon as I started recording, the zebras turned standard.

Here is what I am talking about. First image is while recording 14-bit, second while recording 10-bit.



Here is a reference picture of the scene I made with my iPhone 7 Plus :



Moving on to the actual tests, here is the 14-bit :



And here is the 10-bit :



Don't forget that you can click on these images to view in full resolution.

Can you tell the difference ?  :P


Here are all my files from the test, DNG's, xmp profiles created in ACR, PSD files, exported JPEGs and everything in between.

Conclusion :

It seems that both 14-bit and 10-bit depths handle high exposure detail very, very well. Both can be ''metered'' about the same for the highlights. From what I can tell, we lose detail in the clouds at f/6.4 and f/7. We start seeing consistent detail in the clouds at f/8. Coincidentally, f/8 is when the black bars in the RAW zebras don't appear anymore. I would conclude that using zebras for exposing and looking for an exposure just before black bars is a great way of getting all the highlight capacity of the sensor. I had trouble seeing the difference in this scene from 10-bit and 14-bit. In my eye, they both seem equal. I did not test 12-bit because the difference was marginal compared to 14-bit in the first test.

The bulk of the difference that I wanted to expose is between the two extremes. This does support my hypothesis in the first test that highlight detail seems unaffected by bit depth.

I also took the good exposure picture (f/8) and pushed the shadows to 100%. I looked for areas where I could see differences. Here is another example of the green cast in the shadows when pushed to the extreme (Shadows -100) :



You can see what I am talking about in two places : the back of the stop sign and the window frame. In the 10-bit portion (left) you can see some green cast in the recovered shadow areas, but the cast is much less severe than the initial test. There is however much more grain. Its especially visible in the window frame section in the middle.

Conclusion of the conclusion :

10-Bit is AS GOOD AS as 14-Bit for highlight detail retention @ 100 ISO. For shadow detail when pushed up +100, 14-Bit still holds an advantage, albeit less than previously thought.

VAF filter comparison coming soon.

yourboylloyd

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Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2020, 12:35:31 AM »
Wow... I honestly can't tell the difference... Even after I downloaded the files and played with them myself. It's clear that it's important to expose the highlights properly though. Those clouds look like something out of a cartoon at -1.66 and -1.33EV

I'm flabbergasted. Reddeercity was right... I feel like I have to do a test now because I would way rather shoot in 10bit instead of 12bit on most all shoots. Even if there is a difference in shadows a little, that is negligible to me because I do a lot of work in post anyway to fix things that I don't like.

Anyways, whenever you do the VAF test, please do a Fullframe and a crop mode test!
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Luther

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Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2020, 01:54:18 AM »
Are you sure you're recoding in 10-bit and 14-bit? Exiftool says these files have the same bit depth:
Code: [Select]
14-bit (f/8)

ExifTool Version Number         : 11.93
File Name                       : 14_f8.dng
Directory                       : .
File Size                       : 3.8 MB
File Modification Date/Time     : 2020:04:18 20:21:12-03:00
File Access Date/Time           : 2020:04:18 20:20:59-03:00
File Creation Date/Time         : 2020:04:18 20:21:12-03:00
File Permissions                : rw-rw-rw-
File Type                       : DNG
File Type Extension             : dng
MIME Type                       : image/x-adobe-dng
Exif Byte Order                 : Little-endian (Intel, II)
Subfile Type                    : Full-resolution image
Image Width                     : 1856
Image Height                    : 1044
Bits Per Sample                 : 16
Compression                     : Uncompressed
Photometric Interpretation      : Color Filter Array
Fill Order                      : Normal
Make                            : Canon
Camera Model Name               : Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Strip Offsets                   : 65536
Orientation                     : Horizontal (normal)
Samples Per Pixel               : 1
Rows Per Strip                  : 1044
Strip Byte Counts               : 3875328
Planar Configuration            : Chunky
Software                        : MLVFS
Modify Date                     : 2020:04:18 12:41:35
CFA Repeat Pattern Dim          : 2 2
CFA Pattern 2                   : 0 1 1 2
Exposure Time                   : 1/50
F Number                        : 8.0
ISO                             : 100
Sensitivity Type                : ISO Speed
Exif Version                    : 0230
Subject Distance                : 83 m
Focal Length                    : 35.0 mm
Focal Plane X Resolution        : 1283.070596
Focal Plane Y Resolution        : 1302.713987
Focal Plane Resolution Unit     : inches
Lens Model                      : EF35mm f/2 IS USM
DNG Version                     : 1.4.0.0
Unique Camera Model             : Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Black Level                     : 1792
White Level                     : 16200
Default Scale                   : 1 1
Default Crop Origin             : 0 0
Default Crop Size               : 1856 1044
Color Matrix 1                  : 0.5309 -0.0229 -0.0336 -0.6241 1.3265 0.3337 -0.0817 0.1215 0.6664
Color Matrix 2                  : 0.4716 0.0603 -0.083 -0.7798 1.5474 0.248 -0.1496 0.1937 0.6651
As Shot Neutral                 : 0.4225005186 1 0.6434584088
Baseline Exposure               : 0
Camera Serial Number            : 3CD6BAE2
Calibration Illuminant 1        : Standard Light A
Calibration Illuminant 2        : D65
Active Area                     : 0 0 1044 1856
Forward Matrix 1                : 0.8924 -0.1041 0.176 0.4351 0.6621 -0.0972 0.0505 -0.1562 0.9308
Forward Matrix 2                : 0.8924 -0.1041 0.176 0.4351 0.6621 -0.0972 0.0505 -0.1562 0.9308
Time Codes                      : 00:00:00.00
Frame Rate                      : 23.976
Reel Name                       : /M18-1246.MLV
Baseline Exposure Offset        : 0
Aperture                        : 8.0
CFA Pattern                     : [Red,Green][Green,Blue]
Image Size                      : 1856x1044
Megapixels                      : 1.9
Scale Factor To 35 mm Equivalent: 1.0
Shutter Speed                   : 1/50
Circle Of Confusion             : 0.029 mm
Depth Of Field                  : inf (4.94 m - inf)
Field Of View                   : 53.1 deg
Focal Length                    : 35.0 mm (35 mm equivalent: 36.1 mm)
Hyperfocal Distance             : 5.25 m
Light Value                     : 11.6

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

10-bit (f/8)

ExifTool Version Number         : 11.93
File Name                       : 10_f8.dng
Directory                       : .
File Size                       : 3.8 MB
File Modification Date/Time     : 2020:04:18 20:19:59-03:00
File Access Date/Time           : 2020:04:18 20:19:58-03:00
File Creation Date/Time         : 2020:04:18 20:19:58-03:00
File Permissions                : r--r--r--
File Type                       : DNG
File Type Extension             : dng
MIME Type                       : image/x-adobe-dng
Exif Byte Order                 : Little-endian (Intel, II)
Subfile Type                    : Full-resolution image
Image Width                     : 1856
Image Height                    : 1044
Bits Per Sample                 : 16
Compression                     : Uncompressed
Photometric Interpretation      : Color Filter Array
Fill Order                      : Normal
Make                            : Canon
Camera Model Name               : Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Strip Offsets                   : 65536
Orientation                     : Horizontal (normal)
Samples Per Pixel               : 1
Rows Per Strip                  : 1044
Strip Byte Counts               : 3875328
Planar Configuration            : Chunky
Software                        : MLVFS
Modify Date                     : 2020:04:18 12:39:41
CFA Repeat Pattern Dim          : 2 2
CFA Pattern 2                   : 0 1 1 2
Exposure Time                   : 1/50
F Number                        : 8.0
ISO                             : 100
Sensitivity Type                : ISO Speed
Exif Version                    : 0230
Subject Distance                : 83 m
Focal Length                    : 35.0 mm
Focal Plane X Resolution        : 1283.070596
Focal Plane Y Resolution        : 1302.713987
Focal Plane Resolution Unit     : inches
Lens Model                      : EF35mm f/2 IS USM
DNG Version                     : 1.4.0.0
Unique Camera Model             : Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Black Level                     : 112
White Level                     : 1013
Default Scale                   : 1 1
Default Crop Origin             : 0 0
Default Crop Size               : 1856 1044
Color Matrix 1                  : 0.5309 -0.0229 -0.0336 -0.6241 1.3265 0.3337 -0.0817 0.1215 0.6664
Color Matrix 2                  : 0.4716 0.0603 -0.083 -0.7798 1.5474 0.248 -0.1496 0.1937 0.6651
As Shot Neutral                 : 0.4225005186 1 0.6434584088
Baseline Exposure               : 0
Camera Serial Number            : 3CD6BAE2
Calibration Illuminant 1        : Standard Light A
Calibration Illuminant 2        : D65
Active Area                     : 0 0 1044 1856
Forward Matrix 1                : 0.8924 -0.1041 0.176 0.4351 0.6621 -0.0972 0.0505 -0.1562 0.9308
Forward Matrix 2                : 0.8924 -0.1041 0.176 0.4351 0.6621 -0.0972 0.0505 -0.1562 0.9308
Time Codes                      : 00:00:00.00
Frame Rate                      : 23.976
Reel Name                       : /M18-1241.MLV
Baseline Exposure Offset        : 0
Aperture                        : 8.0
CFA Pattern                     : [Red,Green][Green,Blue]
Image Size                      : 1856x1044
Megapixels                      : 1.9
Scale Factor To 35 mm Equivalent: 1.0
Shutter Speed                   : 1/50
Circle Of Confusion             : 0.029 mm
Depth Of Field                  : inf (4.94 m - inf)
Field Of View                   : 53.1 deg
Focal Length                    : 35.0 mm (35 mm equivalent: 36.1 mm)
Hyperfocal Distance             : 5.25 m
Light Value                     : 11.6

reddeercity

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  • Posts: 2271
Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2020, 02:58:16 AM »
Are you sure you're recoding in 10-bit and 14-bit? Exiftool says these files have the same bit depth:
Code: [Select]
14-bit (f/8)
....
Image Width                     : 1856
Image Height                    : 1044
Bits Per Sample                 : 16
.......
Unique Camera Model             : Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Black Level                     : 1792
White Level                     : 16200


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

10-bit (f/8)


Image Width                     : 1856
Image Height                    : 1044
Bits Per Sample                 : 16
......
Software                        : MLVFS
.......
Unique Camera Model             : Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Black Level                     : 112
White Level                     : 1013
Because "MLVFS" export's virtual Cdng's to 16bit (it just padded at the end of the file no extra information is added)
Look at the black & white level , 10bit=112 , 1013
14bit= 1792 , 16200
so it's correct .


@Volumetrik 2 Thumbs up !! great job - now that's how you do it , thanks for the contributions to ML .

Volumetrik

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  • Posts: 43
Re: MLV RAW 14-Bit vs 12-Bit vs 10-Bit Comparison on 5D2
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2020, 03:13:45 AM »
Are you sure you're recoding in 10-bit and 14-bit? Exiftool says these files have the same bit depth:
Code: [Select]
14-bit (f/8)

ExifTool Version Number         : 11.93
File Name                       : 14_f8.dng
Directory                       : .
File Size                       : 3.8 MB
File Modification Date/Time     : 2020:04:18 20:21:12-03:00
File Access Date/Time           : 2020:04:18 20:20:59-03:00
File Creation Date/Time         : 2020:04:18 20:21:12-03:00
File Permissions                : rw-rw-rw-
File Type                       : DNG
File Type Extension             : dng
MIME Type                       : image/x-adobe-dng
Exif Byte Order                 : Little-endian (Intel, II)
Subfile Type                    : Full-resolution image
Image Width                     : 1856
Image Height                    : 1044
Bits Per Sample                 : 16
Compression                     : Uncompressed
Photometric Interpretation      : Color Filter Array
Fill Order                      : Normal
Make                            : Canon
Camera Model Name               : Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Strip Offsets                   : 65536
Orientation                     : Horizontal (normal)
Samples Per Pixel               : 1
Rows Per Strip                  : 1044
Strip Byte Counts               : 3875328
Planar Configuration            : Chunky
Software                        : MLVFS
Modify Date                     : 2020:04:18 12:41:35
CFA Repeat Pattern Dim          : 2 2
CFA Pattern 2                   : 0 1 1 2
Exposure Time                   : 1/50
F Number                        : 8.0
ISO                             : 100
Sensitivity Type                : ISO Speed
Exif Version                    : 0230
Subject Distance                : 83 m
Focal Length                    : 35.0 mm
Focal Plane X Resolution        : 1283.070596
Focal Plane Y Resolution        : 1302.713987
Focal Plane Resolution Unit     : inches
Lens Model                      : EF35mm f/2 IS USM
DNG Version                     : 1.4.0.0
Unique Camera Model             : Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Black Level                     : 1792
White Level                     : 16200
Default Scale                   : 1 1
Default Crop Origin             : 0 0
Default Crop Size               : 1856 1044
Color Matrix 1                  : 0.5309 -0.0229 -0.0336 -0.6241 1.3265 0.3337 -0.0817 0.1215 0.6664
Color Matrix 2                  : 0.4716 0.0603 -0.083 -0.7798 1.5474 0.248 -0.1496 0.1937 0.6651
As Shot Neutral                 : 0.4225005186 1 0.6434584088
Baseline Exposure               : 0
Camera Serial Number            : 3CD6BAE2
Calibration Illuminant 1        : Standard Light A
Calibration Illuminant 2        : D65
Active Area                     : 0 0 1044 1856
Forward Matrix 1                : 0.8924 -0.1041 0.176 0.4351 0.6621 -0.0972 0.0505 -0.1562 0.9308
Forward Matrix 2                : 0.8924 -0.1041 0.176 0.4351 0.6621 -0.0972 0.0505 -0.1562 0.9308
Time Codes                      : 00:00:00.00
Frame Rate                      : 23.976
Reel Name                       : /M18-1246.MLV
Baseline Exposure Offset        : 0
Aperture                        : 8.0
CFA Pattern                     : [Red,Green][Green,Blue]
Image Size                      : 1856x1044
Megapixels                      : 1.9
Scale Factor To 35 mm Equivalent: 1.0
Shutter Speed                   : 1/50
Circle Of Confusion             : 0.029 mm
Depth Of Field                  : inf (4.94 m - inf)
Field Of View                   : 53.1 deg
Focal Length                    : 35.0 mm (35 mm equivalent: 36.1 mm)
Hyperfocal Distance             : 5.25 m
Light Value                     : 11.6

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

10-bit (f/8)

ExifTool Version Number         : 11.93
File Name                       : 10_f8.dng
Directory                       : .
File Size                       : 3.8 MB
File Modification Date/Time     : 2020:04:18 20:19:59-03:00
File Access Date/Time           : 2020:04:18 20:19:58-03:00
File Creation Date/Time         : 2020:04:18 20:19:58-03:00
File Permissions                : r--r--r--
File Type                       : DNG
File Type Extension             : dng
MIME Type                       : image/x-adobe-dng
Exif Byte Order                 : Little-endian (Intel, II)
Subfile Type                    : Full-resolution image
Image Width                     : 1856
Image Height                    : 1044
Bits Per Sample                 : 16
Compression                     : Uncompressed
Photometric Interpretation      : Color Filter Array
Fill Order                      : Normal
Make                            : Canon
Camera Model Name               : Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Strip Offsets                   : 65536
Orientation                     : Horizontal (normal)
Samples Per Pixel               : 1
Rows Per Strip                  : 1044
Strip Byte Counts               : 3875328
Planar Configuration            : Chunky
Software                        : MLVFS
Modify Date                     : 2020:04:18 12:39:41
CFA Repeat Pattern Dim          : 2 2
CFA Pattern 2                   : 0 1 1 2
Exposure Time                   : 1/50
F Number                        : 8.0
ISO                             : 100
Sensitivity Type                : ISO Speed
Exif Version                    : 0230
Subject Distance                : 83 m
Focal Length                    : 35.0 mm
Focal Plane X Resolution        : 1283.070596
Focal Plane Y Resolution        : 1302.713987
Focal Plane Resolution Unit     : inches
Lens Model                      : EF35mm f/2 IS USM
DNG Version                     : 1.4.0.0
Unique Camera Model             : Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Black Level                     : 112
White Level                     : 1013
Default Scale                   : 1 1
Default Crop Origin             : 0 0
Default Crop Size               : 1856 1044
Color Matrix 1                  : 0.5309 -0.0229 -0.0336 -0.6241 1.3265 0.3337 -0.0817 0.1215 0.6664
Color Matrix 2                  : 0.4716 0.0603 -0.083 -0.7798 1.5474 0.248 -0.1496 0.1937 0.6651
As Shot Neutral                 : 0.4225005186 1 0.6434584088
Baseline Exposure               : 0
Camera Serial Number            : 3CD6BAE2
Calibration Illuminant 1        : Standard Light A
Calibration Illuminant 2        : D65
Active Area                     : 0 0 1044 1856
Forward Matrix 1                : 0.8924 -0.1041 0.176 0.4351 0.6621 -0.0972 0.0505 -0.1562 0.9308
Forward Matrix 2                : 0.8924 -0.1041 0.176 0.4351 0.6621 -0.0972 0.0505 -0.1562 0.9308
Time Codes                      : 00:00:00.00
Frame Rate                      : 23.976
Reel Name                       : /M18-1241.MLV
Baseline Exposure Offset        : 0
Aperture                        : 8.0
CFA Pattern                     : [Red,Green][Green,Blue]
Image Size                      : 1856x1044
Megapixels                      : 1.9
Scale Factor To 35 mm Equivalent: 1.0
Shutter Speed                   : 1/50
Circle Of Confusion             : 0.029 mm
Depth Of Field                  : inf (4.94 m - inf)
Field Of View                   : 53.1 deg
Focal Length                    : 35.0 mm (35 mm equivalent: 36.1 mm)
Hyperfocal Distance             : 5.25 m
Light Value                     : 11.6

It seems reddeercity has responded already, but I have arrived at the same conclusion independently. Both show as 16-bit as he said, so I popped the ExifTool generated description in a text compare and got these differences. White and black level seem to differ between the two. Its crazy that only this changes in between bit depths while using MLVFS.



Juggling these DNGs of different bit depth is a bit confusing because they all have the exact same size (3,849 KB) between 14, 12 and 10 bit so differentiating them is harder than I thought. I am glad someone is back-checking my stuff !

Because "MLVFS" export's virtual Cdng's to 16bit (it just padded at the end of the file no extra information is added)
Look at the black & white level , 10bit=112 , 1013
14bit= 1792 , 16200
so it's correct .


@Volumetrik 2 Thumbs up !! great job - now that's how you do it , thanks for the contributions to ML .

Thanks, that means a lot !