Author Topic: Mirrorless 5D  (Read 406 times)

ilia3101

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Mirrorless 5D
« on: January 04, 2020, 06:32:43 PM »
I think about this a lot. I really want a mirroless camera with a full frame sensor. There is so many lenses that I just can't mount on a 5D. I have thought about an old sony A7, but the wasted video potential without magic lantern hurts, so I want it to be a ML Canon, but EOS R is not worth waiting for, and it's way too expensive.

I remember seeing this amazing 5D mark 2 leica M-mount mod - I have searched the guy's website who did it, and can't find anything about the mod, nothing on web archive either. Basically there is no information about it except the identical article on every photo news website, seems ridiculous not to share anything about such an amazing project.

So I am skeptical. Wouldn't removing the mirrorbox cause some kind of error? Could ML suppress this kind of error? Or would the camera still work even with no mirrorbox electronics connected?

And does the answer differ for 5D2 and 5D3?

Please I want some knowledge on this topic if anyone could help out!

2blackbar

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Re: Mirrorless 5D
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2020, 07:08:59 PM »
There is sigma fp, records in 12 bits 1080p internally to card or 4k to SSD.
Why would You want to make it mirrorless if mount will stay the same , they usually just rip out plastic around sensor with mirror but focal flange distance of the mount is the same, there are no adapters from that to closer focal flange.
If they would swap mounts from lets say canon M then its worth it, IMO it is doable even if You would try to do it Yourself, but centering lens should be tested first, and maybe boying some macro tubes to acquire M mount or maybe micro 3/4 mount.
But i would tape the area around sensor and cover it with some transparent plastic bag cut out or something before any operation like that.
I only modified my canon M mount , i sanded off parts of the mount to fit speedbooster from sony on it so i had to cover sensor before that and even then some tiny parts of metal dust got into the sensor but i managed to clean it  so its not that super dangerous but you should kbnow what Youre doing, i did a test before hand with macro tubes and sanded them with a file but checked flange distance if it was even plausible, its the same distance on sony NEX and canon M.
That modified 5D looks slick and some trolling comments are sad to read.IMO it just needs a logo above the lens mount.

ilia3101

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Re: Mirrorless 5D
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2020, 08:07:18 PM »
There is sigma fp, records in 12 bits 1080p internally to card or 4k to SSD.
I am confused how it records 4k bayer raw off a 6k sensor without cropping though. I suspect it is cropped to APSC. It's also too expensive. But I do like it.

Why would You want to make it mirrorless if mount will stay the same

Well my intention is to change the mount for shorter one. Just like that modified 5D, they put an M mount on it (Leica M mount has short flange distance). I would go for sony E mount if I do it.

(in my mind mirrorless is synonymous with short flange distance)

I only modified my canon M mount , i sanded off parts of the mount to fit speedbooster from sony on it so i had to cover sensor before that and even then some tiny parts of metal dust got into the sensor but i managed to clean it  so its not that super dangerous but you should kbnow what Youre doing, i did a test before hand with macro tubes and sanded them with a file but checked flange distance if it was even plausible, its the same distance on sony NEX and canon M.
That modified 5D looks slick and some trolling comments are sad to read.IMO it just needs a logo above the lens mount.

I noticed that canon M and sony E mount are almost the same, I was able to put an E mount adapter on the EOS M (just didn't lock in place).

2blackbar

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Re: Mirrorless 5D
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2020, 08:53:49 PM »
Found another article on it:
https://www.slrlounge.com/how-a-canon-5d-mark-ii-is-transformed-into-a-pseduo-leica/
I found some statements kinda funny, it is not as hard as they make it to be, they wrote that focal flange has to be super precise blah blah... no it doesnt have to be, you just have to hit infinity, you can even go more than infinity but you lose tiny bit macro range thats all.
Lens is just moving closer and farther , its not like if your flange is off then lens stops working , just hit infinity flange distance or over infinity to be safe, i modified some lenses and some of them focus over infinity and thats fine, better than not hitting infinity at all.

ilia3101

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Re: Mirrorless 5D
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2020, 09:10:47 PM »
I agree. All my lenses focus past infinity anyway. Main thing is for the lens and sensor planes to stay parrallel.

masc

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Re: Mirrorless 5D
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2020, 09:14:03 PM »
Main thing is for the lens and sensor planes to stay parrallel.
Oh yes... and the wider the lens, the more important is high precision!
Wish you much luck, if you try it! ;)
5D2.212 | EOSM.202

2blackbar

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Re: Mirrorless 5D
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2020, 09:19:22 PM »
Yes , otherwise one side will be past infinity and other before infinity etc. But those old manyal lenses , ive seen many tests of them online, A LOT of them dont have corner sharpness until on F4 and lower, For stills i mean, for 1080p video theyre fine.

ilia3101

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Re: Mirrorless 5D
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2020, 09:27:16 PM »
Oh yes... and the wider the lens, the more important is high precision!
Couldn't agree more... Literally every wide lens I've used has had symmetry issues.

Wish you much luck, if you try it! ;)
I am looking out for a cheap 5D with broken mirror or something. Don't want to ruin my current one yet ;)

Skinny

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Re: Mirrorless 5D
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2020, 09:34:19 PM »
When I got the first manual lens in my life, I couldn’t wait until the M42 adapter arrives from China. I just took a piece of PVC pipe, some copper wire, and a lot of hot glue  :D and made my adapter in 15 minutes. it was NOT parallel, at all, but it worked quite well it was enough for most of the scenes. Honestly, there was almost no difference compared to the factory adapter.

So, of course, it is quite possible.. but... Can I ask which lens do you want to use so much, which is worth the risk of ruining a camera? :D

ilia3101

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Re: Mirrorless 5D
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2020, 09:57:35 PM »
When I got the first manual lens in my life, I couldn’t wait until the M42 adapter arrives from China. I just took a piece of PVC pipe, some copper wire, and a lot of hot glue  :D and made my adapter in 15 minutes. it was NOT parallel, at all, but it worked quite well it was enough for most of the scenes.
Wow. I don't remember being that excited about my first manual lens :D

So, of course, it is quite possible.. but... Can I ask which lens do you want to use so much, which is worth the risk of ruining a camera? :D
That's why I'd prefer to do it on an already slightly ruined camera. There's a lot of vintage lens mounts that I can't adapt to EF mount. There's quite a few lenses I want to try, can't remember them right now. I have this one Helios-33 "cine" lens - the smallest 35mm f2.0 lens I have ever seen, it's very nice on EOS M and probably even better on full frame.

a1ex

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Re: Mirrorless 5D
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2020, 10:23:18 PM »
If the question is about the original 5D, its biggest limitation is lack of LiveView. While some kind of full-res silent image capture might be doable, I have no idea whether it's possible to drive the sensor in rolling shutter mode, or at lower resolutions. One could try to capture the low-level MMIO activity alongside with Canon's debug messages, and attempt to figure it out from there, assuming it matches, at least to some extent, what happens on newer models.

So I am skeptical. Wouldn't removing the mirrorbox cause some kind of error? Could ML suppress this kind of error? Or would the camera still work even with no mirrorbox electronics connected?

In the past I've tried, without success, to suppress the ERR20 that appeared on 550D with VAF filter attached. This error comes from the MPU. However, the image capture is driven from the main CPU, so as long as the camera boots and doesn't attempt to actuate the shutter/mirror, you might get away with that.

To mount the 24mm/2.8 on 5D2/3, I had to tape the mirror to the top side, effectively disabling the optical viewfinder. No errors yet. Not sure if helpful.

Mirror box is apparently removable at least on some models; I've never tried to disassemble a camera.

If you remove the entire mechanism, it might be easier to emulate the mirror/shutter signals with a small MCU (e.g. AVR, see also this), so the MPU would think the machinery is still there and working as expected. No idea how these signals should look like, but I guess one can probe them with an oscilloscope or logic analyzer.

Skinny

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Re: Mirrorless 5D
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2020, 10:45:41 PM »
I have this one Helios-33 "cine" lens - the smallest 35mm f2.0 lens I have ever seen, it's very nice on EOS M and probably even better on full frame.
You know... people say this lens will only work for a crop sensor. Well this is logical, it was originally for a 35mm video camera, where the film is oriented vertically..

ilia3101

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Re: Mirrorless 5D
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2020, 11:26:04 PM »
If the question is about the original 5D, its biggest limitation is lack of LiveView. While some kind of full-res silent image capture might be doable, I have no idea whether it's possible to drive the sensor in rolling shutter mode, or at lower resolutions. One could try to capture the low-level MMIO activity alongside with Canon's debug messages, and attempt to figure it out from there, assuming it matches, at least to some extent, what happens on newer models.

I was thinking to do it with a 5D2 rather than the original, as it has liveview and video. 5D2 is sometimes as cheap as a 5D classic.

In the past I've tried, without success, to suppress the ERR20 that appeared on 550D with VAF filter attached. This error comes from the MPU. However, the image capture is driven from the main CPU, so as long as the camera boots and doesn't attempt to actuate the shutter/mirror, you might get away with that.

To mount the 24mm/2.8 on 5D2/3, I had to tape the mirror to the top side, effectively disabling the optical viewfinder. No errors yet. Not sure if helpful.
Interesting that 550D gets an error from something like that. I have put my 5D2's mirror in all kind of situations and never got an error.

My old 5D2's mirror wouldn't stop falling off (normally the original 5D has this problem), and I'd keep gluing it, but eventually the layers of glue became so thick that the mirror was not useful, so I just decided to rip off the entire mirror holder - it still worked for quite some time being mirrorless. No errors.

Final picture: https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=24322.msg218582 (don't ask what else happened, I don't even remember the details)


To mount the 24mm/2.8 on 5D2/3, I had to tape the mirror to the top side, effectively disabling the optical viewfinder. No errors yet. Not sure if helpful.

Mirror box is apparently removable at least on some models; I've never tried to disassemble a camera.

That's interesting information. Would be nice if that is the case for other models

If you remove the entire mechanism, it might be easier to emulate the mirror/shutter signals with a small MCU (e.g. AVR, see also this), so the MPU would think the machinery is still there and working as expected. No idea how these signals should look like, but I guess one can probe them with an oscilloscope or logic analyzer.
I have a lot of spare time these days, so I could try stuff like that if needed. But I have never done anything like it.

You know... people say this lens will only work for a crop sensor. Well this is logical, it was originally for a 35mm video camera, where the film is oriented vertically..
Very true, but I have seen a few pictures with it on a sony A7, it vignettes a lot, but does cover everything except the very corners, so it could be used with a wide cinema aspect ratio.