Author Topic: How many people would like to donate?  (Read 18767 times)

Dmytro_ua

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2019, 05:45:34 PM »
I cannot vote in Twitter as I don't have an account there. But I'd vote for porting to new models: 5d4, R, RP etc.
As we already have old models cams for every budget, but all of them lack new technologies, such as adequate auto focus (eye focus in R series).
5d3 1.1.3 exp | Canon 16-35 4.0L | Canon 50 1.4 | Canon 100mm 2.8 macro
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yourboylloyd

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2019, 07:43:03 PM »
Some food for thought.

After reading these I now get a grasp of how hard this is on the developers.

Just let us know where/when/how to send my money whenever it's figured out!
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kfprod

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2019, 11:37:24 AM »
My 2 cents: isn't this one of the main things what the ML Bitcoin was set up for, so that development could continue even when lead developers needed pay? I say use that money to pay lead developers to continue the development and when that money runs out do another collection.

The vote now after 5 days on Twitter is 57% to develop "new" cams (1 day left on the voting). The Mark IV went on sale in September 2016, over 3 years now. I think this needs to happen or the project and forum will just slowly disappear as the features of the older models really isn't up to the task anymore.

5D Mark IV dynamic range score (Landscape 13.6 EV) offers nearly a 2-stop advantage over the 11.7 EV recorded on the 5D Mark III. 2 stops of dynamic range is massive. It's like comparing the Arri Alexa with the first RED camera released. One sensor is still around winning Oscars, the other isn't used anymore. Compressed RAW video with 13.6 EV and Canon Color Science (beats Black Magic and RED every time) would be an amazing boost to the project.

morgan20

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2019, 10:22:45 AM »
I'm a software developer, but I write on high level languages like Python and Java. I have some experience in C, but no ASM and no reverse engineering. I couldn't spend much time debugging my 6d2 when I tried to find stubs, so sadly I failed to make any progress.

Thus, I'm willing to donate some of my money to get ML on my camera. Though, I'm not sure how you guys are going to do that. Some people will be donating for 5d4, some for 6d2, some for EOS R.

nikfreak

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2019, 03:49:43 PM »
...The Mark IV went on sale in September 2016, over 3 years now. I think this needs to happen or the project and forum will just slowly disappear as the features of the older models really isn't up to the task anymore.

5D Mark IV dynamic range score....

It's not only about the dynamic range but lesson learned that 5d's provide fastest write speed and therefore highest Resolution with best Image quality. Pro's will use it and that again is where money will come from
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canneloni

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2019, 05:22:13 PM »
First off: I would gladly donate! You're doing amazing work and I'm sure people will happily support you guys!

But when it comes to the question of where to focus development, I think it would be best to concentrate on the cheaper models with many users, like the m50 or soon m6II. The thing is, good cameras are getting cheap, many great features ML implemented in the camera-world are now widely available for Canon cameras and also for other camera brands. I don't think professionals will buy a 5DIV to shoot video, even if ML will work on there.
There are cameras like the BMPCC6k that do a fantastic job of providing people with what they need in a cheap cinema camera. But especially the entry level cameras often have some software-limitations that ML could possibly work around.The eos m line is very popular and with sigma announcing their lenses for that mount I think it will grow even further. The EOS R isn't as well accepted yet, although it still is a great camera. But the quality is already so good (especially with 10Bit 422 4k external recording) and the software limitations are so little, that there is not much of a need to improve, at least compared to the m50 or m6II. The EOS M is already amazing and just imagine what it could do with DP-focus.
I would say many people use ML in a non-professional field or as b-cameras, so focusing on pro cams seems like it would mean a lot of development for not so widely spread cameras.

What I'm trying to say is: I would focus on users who don't already have high-end cams that need no improvement and only have a "small" user-base, but rather focus on the cams that could benefit the most and have many users that could profit. And for ML to grow and still be relevant in a few years, adopting new bodies seems like a must to me. I'm pretty sure many people already switched to Sony,Fuji etc. because they offer better AF, details etc. but miss canons overall build quality. ML could be the reason to switch back.
With tools like MLV-App, the overall workflow has gotten a lot easier and the quality benefit justifies the extra steps you have to take. But ML cams with no AF will still give users a good reason to switch to another brand.

100D.100B ; Canon 18-55 STM ; Canon 50 1,8 II ; Canon 75-300 4,0 - 5,6 III ; Sigma 17-50 2,8

nikfreak

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2019, 05:37:14 PM »
Guess 5d4 will be one of the hardest ones to port. So a good base for other ports. Be Sure to expect Problems like dpaf Not working etc I know what I am talking about. 80d could be easiest to start with. Check previous posts in past from me. Once there's a base For digic6+ I am Porting another one, too. Eos R, RP also welcome to start with - though still Voting for 5d4 :P
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DeafEyeJedi

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2019, 06:13:57 PM »
Actually I am 110% with you on that @nikfreak!
5D3.113 | 5D3.123 | EOSM.203 | 7D.203 | 70D.112 | 100D.101 | EOSM2.* | 50D.109

morgan20

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2019, 06:14:57 PM »
Having in mind that 5d4 developement will help other digic 6+ cams, I would gladly donate. Especially that I'm looking up to buy 5d4, though I don't really want it without ML.

IDA_ML

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2019, 06:52:10 PM »
I fully agree with Nikfreak and vote for the 5DMkIV.  For what it can do, it has dramatically dropped in price.  Its main advantage is that it provides stellar performance with a huge number of EF lenses that many people own already and are also quite affordable.  This is not the case with the EOS-R line.  And finally, it is build to last.  Adding ML to the 5DMkIV would be the perfect solution for a huge number of professional videographers on a budget who do not want to make any compromises with the quality of their videos.  By the way, most of them do also stills photography, so with the 5DMkIV they have the best of both worlds.

Speaking of my own experience, I love my 100D.  With ML installed, it gives me all I need for my family and amateur videos.  If however, I want to film a serious project or important event, I borrow the 5DMkIII.  Everyone who has filmed with ML on that camera knows why.  Keeping in mind that the 5DMkIII is getting pretty old and quite hard to get, I am patiently waiting for ML on the 5DMkIV.  Do you read this, Canon?  I will buy a 5DMkIV in the moment ML works on it! 

Dmytro_ua

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2019, 08:36:38 PM »
I think it would be best to concentrate on the cheaper models with many users

Yes, but NO. There're already a lot of really cheap cameras with ML so you can buy a dozen of them for a change.

What ML is actually lack right now - is smth professional with better features than 5d3.
Although EOS R is more future proof for me IMO, but 5d4 is also a great candidate.

There are cameras like the BMPCC6k that do a fantastic job of providing people with what they need
BMPCC6k is good, but it's not a 5d4. Not a full frame, lack of continuous Auto-focus and it's not a camera for stills.
5d3 1.1.3 exp | Canon 16-35 4.0L | Canon 50 1.4 | Canon 100mm 2.8 macro
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a1ex

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2019, 11:47:41 AM »
Alright, the poll results are in. Thanks everyone for participating!

1) Development for new cams: 57%
2) New features for old cams: 36%
3) Custom (private) projects: 4%
4) Commercial support: 3%

Total: 288 votes.

It's worth noting there was a limit of 4 choices x 25 characters, so I had a bit of trouble finding the best wording. Anyway, here's my opinion on these results:


1) new cameras: this includes primarily DIGIC 6/7/8 cameras (the ones running EOS firmware), but also DIGIC 4+ ones. There are about 20 new models in this category.

Actually, this is what I've been focusing on, since mid-2018, at the expense of DIGIC 4/5 development (which wasn't funny, btw). Current status: the proof of concept code ("Hello World" on top of Canon firmware) is working on most of these new models (200D, 5D4, 80D, 77D, 7D2, 5DS/R, M50, EOS R, and likely all others), which means by the time ML will be ported to one of these new cameras, 90% of the work will be already done. In other words, the whole group of bodies will be done by "one" common miracle.

And yes - our latest April 1st stunt is the clearest proof that porting ML on most (if not all) DIGIC 6/7/8 EOS cameras is actually doable.

Of course, the question is what new camera(s) should I focus on - besides M50 - and most of the suggestions are heading towards 5D4. I prefer to leave this decision for later.


2) old cameras: this one is about maintaining the existing cameras (about 16 models), ideally backporting some of the recent developments (such as crop_rec or Lua improvements).

Based on this vote, I wouldn't declare a code freeze on these old models; I'd just reduce their priority, and maybe allow more flexibility in the codebase, regarding camera capabilities. I'm not targeting every single feature on every single camera. I'd rather remove very old features that are cluttering the codebase, or maybe reimplement them from scratch in a more portable way.

At the very least, the DIGIC 7/8 ports are going to uncover a large number of null pointer bugs (forcing us to fix them), and I want these old models to at least benefit from these fixes; this should be doable without much additional effort. Automated testing in QEMU would be the only sensible way to address this, in my opinion.

Very old models (such as 40D or 5D) are likely in the same category, though I wouldn't expect a high percentage of users. I wouldn't be surprised if one of these gets ML before 5D4, but - should this happen - it will be because their owners were more active on the coding side. Keep this in mind when asking "What about camera X?" as soon as somebody posts an update about camera Y or Z ;)

And IDA_ML already explained why we shouldn't drop the older models, better than anyone else. Thumbs up from me!


3) custom projects: these would have been custom developments made on a freelancing basis, for paying clients.

I had some similar requests in the past, the most interesting one coming with a $5000 reward. The feature was (and still is) way above my knowledge levels, although it was pretty simple at first sight - but required programming a secondary processor. So... I've looked into it for a while, and then gave up. Maybe it's better to finance research and development time, rather than final outcome. Just saying ;)

If you are wondering: none of these requests resulted in any kind of agreements or payments.

4) commercial support: for the pro users nikfreak was talking about.

It is my understanding the pro users will need somebody available for troubleshooting, if something goes wrong during a paid job (that is, a support contract - idea from here). At least, I've got 2 or 3 such requests in the past :)

It is also my understanding the pros need something that just works, rather than a powerful toy. It means lots of time for testing, and I know from past experience that relying on user feedback is not sufficient. It's one thing to publish experimental builds every now and then, and hope the users will report important issues, and a totally different thing (read: amount of time spent on the project) to deliver something reliable.

Automatic testing (in QEMU) could be extremely helpful here, but we are looking at months of full-time work, or maybe years, until it will be functional on DIGIC 6/7/8. It's already working relatively well on DIGIC 4/5, but without an important component - LiveView. That one will also require at least a couple of months of work.

I'm confident I can meet these requirements if there is demand, but they are clearly incompatible with me having a full-time job, unrelated to ML. A one-time boost of $5000 or even $10000 is not going to substitute that, sorry.

In any case, this was the least popular option.



Now, a comment I'd like to address:

My 2 cents: isn't this one of the main things what the ML Bitcoin was set up for, so that development could continue even when lead developers needed pay? I say use that money to pay lead developers to continue the development and when that money runs out do another collection.

That's exactly what we are trying to do, with one difference. Once we use the money (to pay a developer + buy a new camera, or whatever), this money will no longer be available to the project - it will be money already spent. So, I don't think it's wise to spend all the money we've got, on a single developer, without some kind of plan to get it back.

And with the current situation (BTC only), the chances of getting this money back in the next 5 years are - in my opinion - next to none, with or without 5D4. Why? Look at the numbers:

- 2013: 2 donations, $22 amplified to $1424
- 2014: 13 donations, $111 amplified to $1925
- 2015: 6 donations, $274 amplified to $9358
- 2016: 1 donation, $25 amplified to $345
- 2017: 3 donations, $46 amplified to $224 (2 after the 3.5K PoC on 5D Mark III !)
- 2018: 3 donations, $47 downgraded to $37 (when most of my time went into DIGIC 6/7/8, including 5D4!)
- 2019: 7 donations, $370 downgraded to $356 (all of them *after* raising awareness)
- Besides BTC, g3gg0 also received €265 in his paypal, to cover server costs (2017 - 2019).

That is, about 14000 volatile USD, collected in 6 years (from about 1200 actually donated).

Currently, website costs are €35/mo (server) + $96/yr (domain) + $30/yr (DNS) + €6.25/mo (protonmail), so about $700/year.

Camera prices (body only, prices from foto-erhardt.de):
- 5D Mark IV: 2500 € (or 2900 € on amazon.de, 3000 € on darty.fr, 2000 € used but in good condition)
- EOS R: 2000 €
- EOS RP: 1350 €
- 6D2: 1500 €
- 90D: 1300 €
- M6II: 930 €

I'm not not saying we should buy all of these, and they don't have to be new. But it does add up, very quickly.

Which hopefully explains why I'm not rushing to take the money and start coding :)



- a1ex made clear legal advice is paramount. Potential showstopper.

Working on it.

aprofiti

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2019, 01:21:55 PM »
I'm perfectly fine with the a1ex's review and is also nice to know from the poll results where others wish some improvements.
There will be so much work to do and support needed from all of us.

Hope to find a solution for legal side soon so this new chapter of ML development can start.

IDA_ML

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2019, 03:01:44 PM »
Very detailed, useful and informative write up, A1ex!  Thanks a lot!  Now I am much more optimistic about the future of Magic Lantern.  Once the start with one camera model is successful and the fundaments are created, I am sure that other people will jump in to port ML to other camera models and eventually, things will start rolling again as in the good old times.  I look forward to it and wish you and the other developers good luck with that.

ilia3101

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2019, 03:14:26 PM »
- a1ex made clear legal advice is paramount. Potential showstopper.

Working on it.

Excited to hear more about this.

Maybe it's better to finance research and development time, rather than final outcome. Just saying ;)

100% agree! everyone should take this in.

DeafEyeJedi

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2019, 07:24:48 AM »
Great follow-up @a1ex!  8)
5D3.113 | 5D3.123 | EOSM.203 | 7D.203 | 70D.112 | 100D.101 | EOSM2.* | 50D.109

BBA

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2019, 05:52:58 PM »
Still there !
Thanks for this great follow-up : would/could not let you down and will not (you all are too good) !
Btw, still working on 5Dm3 LV focus (just for the fun)...so, would like newer AF but, never mind, I will follow devs whaterver will be decided.
Quote
A one-time boost of $5000 or even $10000 is not going to substitute that, sorry.
So wise ! Totally agree.

umcadop

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2019, 02:47:38 AM »
I would be donating, except I don't use bitcoin.  I also try to google how to donate and the wiki page says ML doesn't want donations. https://magiclantern.fandom.com/wiki/Donate  This may be skewing donation number possibilities a bit.

Walter Schulz

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2019, 02:39:03 AM »
I suppose you haven't had the opportunity to read the whole thread from start. It has not been determined which form of donations will be used in the future. And there is a showstopper called legal concerns not solved yet.
Because of that older statements about donations are still in place.

theBilalFakhouri

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2020, 11:45:56 PM »
Working on it.

 ::)


RPCS3 is really great example , the lead developers started working full-time on rpcs3 emulator a few years ago , I loved the idea how Patreon or
the paid work speedup the progress a lot (rpcs3 was started in spare times) and yeah a lot of enhancements and developments happened in the last few years , and for patrons "the people who pay" have exclusive weekly* progress report , that's cool idea which gives confidence between the people and developers (my money isn't wasted :D )

I am just showing cool example might give some inspiration

I hope this project will refresh again in this year

JUST LAUNCH THAT PATREON ACCOUNT
700D 1.1.5 | no more ISOless LV err 8 / SDR104 @ 240 MHz - Constant! | Fixed Scrambled LiveView in Higher resolution | Real-Time correct framing in the Way

SKecorius

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2020, 03:13:19 AM »
How about Kick starter? or some other crowd funding platform? here in forum we could collect all the features and camera models that could be developed, set the target amount of funding, estimate needed working hours and number of developers, and let the people do the rest.

For example, features could be clustered into packages:

1. 5D mark ii (or digic iv cameras); lossless compression; CF overclocking;
5 developers salary for 1 year —- xxxxxx $
hardware/software needed (cameras, computers, cf cards, etc) —- xxxcx $
whatever other costs —— $

2. 5D mark iii; any desired features;
developers needed? salaries?
etc;

3. some general improvements; e.g. gui (see forum suggestion)
developers needed...

4. other related costs (lawyers, etc)


In such case, people would know what features to expect, how much money is needed, how long would it take to develop it. And most importantly - ML is widely known, thus IMHO there will be no problem reaching out for crowd support.

Moreover, there are a lot of people, who would love to support ML even though they are not developers. In such case someone could manage this kickstarter endeavor, others could make an appealing ad. video, influencers spread the message, lawyers could provide counseling regarding such development and Canon’s position, etc.

If Canon cannot give it to us, we will make it ourselves and give it to them :)

Walter Schulz

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2020, 03:20:44 AM »
My new year resolution: Be more friendly to annoying people.

In this manner: Could you pretty please stop pushing?

cin

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2020, 01:49:44 AM »
You need to add traditional payment methods - Mastercard, Visa, WebMoney, Qiwi, PayPal and so on. It is important that the donation is affordable and not complicated.
You could stream on Youtube where you could talk about what kind of project it is, how it can be useful to others, you could also show the main advantages of using it and show the most useful functions directly on the stream.
The problem is that few people know about your project.
In the world there are a lot of people who are fond of photography and video shooting, it is important to convey to them that there is such a project and he needs financial help.
The project is really very useful, it allows you to expand the capabilities of cameras - shoot video in 4K resolution, shoot RAW video, and not pay a lot of money for another camera to get the same functions.
Canon 1300D

names_are_hard

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2020, 12:35:57 AM »
@cin - while you speak from kindness, these are not the problems.  The key problem is that this is a project that must interact with Canon software and hardware, but has no express legal permission to do so.  My personal guess is that it is legal in at least the EU, but the DMCA complicates things outside of there, and asking for payment complicates things further.

olam84

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2020, 08:01:22 PM »
I'm definitely willing to pay, probably around $100.
I would be very happy so see ML fully supported on the Canon 70D  :)