Author Topic: How many people would like to donate?  (Read 5176 times)

aprofiti

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How many people would like to donate?
« on: October 10, 2019, 09:59:54 PM »
Considering the slowdown to the development of ML probably we all already noticed about, there are more than one discussion on the forum of a possible approach to this topic...

I would like to ask you if have ever really considered donating some money to help the community or would like to start.
Personally would like to give some support to main devs even without a guarantee of a short time return in developing effort.

What do you think about? Would you make a recurring donation? Share your opinion so maybe we can make something possible :)


Ilia3101

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2019, 10:25:02 PM »
Personally would like to give some support to main devs even without a guarantee of a short time return in developing effort.

What do you think about? Would you make a recurring donation?

100% agree.

Also I will suggest an idea I have mentioned before but got no response - bountysource - people can create feature requests and contribute money for those feature requests. And once a developer implments a feature, they get all of the money contributed for that feature. Elementary OS use it: https://www.bountysource.com/teams/elementary - where I originally heard of it. The Signal messgaing app also uses it, and probably a lot of good open source projects. Seems perfect imo.

However in the case of ML people are likely to create impossible requests ("Hey guys why haven't you just added 240fps yet?")

Also what happens with stuff sent to the ML bitcoin address?
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a1ex

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2019, 07:52:37 AM »
... 2 here, 2 over here, 1 here, 1 here, a few here, and maybe a few others I've missed :)

Also what happens with stuff sent to the ML bitcoin address?

We chose not to convert it yet. Rather, whenever we needed something for ML (like some fast card, or some nonfree PDF, or... the M50 I've got recently), we simply reached our pockets, knowing the bitcoin will offset the expense somewhen - when we'll be able to sell it for a good price :)

It does feel a bit "underground" to me, and I do feel the need for something better. Other developers are probably happy with their jobs, but - as I've explained back in April - I am (still) looking for better options. If this could gain enough traction to pay a few skilled developers to work on ML for just 1-2 days per week, it might - in my biased opinion - improve the development speed by at least one order of magnitude.

However, if this is going to make the project more vulnerable (as in, what if Canon won't like us turning the cheap M50 into a powerful cinema camera?), it's probably best to stay small, as a pure hobby project. Some good legal advice might clear these doubts.

Pay-per-feature with all the money going to a single developer - probably not the best idea, if you ask me. Integrating that feature into the codebase, making sure it works smoothly on cameras X, Y and Z, and fails gracefully on all others, adjusting the code for future changes - in short, maintenance - is going to take significant effort, compared to simply getting some feature working on some particular model. Feature development can come with a lot of fun, but... paying some random contributor to do a bit of tweaking to some new camera port, after someone else did over 90% of the hard work? No thanks.

Some food for thought.

yokashin

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2019, 11:37:02 AM »
In Poland, we have, for example www.zrzutka.pl
Anyone can set up a sub-account for payments for some purpose.
Maybe someone from Poland will set up an account here so that we can make payments and then make a standard donation for the project?
Not everyone has a bitcoin wallet ...
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yourboylloyd

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2019, 05:52:37 PM »
I most definitely would like to donate! Like on a per month thing if so.

I do agree with a1ex on the bitcoin thing seeming kind of underground, but I think I get it (I love that it is a vanity address too). Is there a way to do like a Patreon or a Ko-fi? Or something under the name autoexec_bin? Bitcoin is probably the safest bet legally though. I think if there was a little more public outreach then it would be easier for people to donate and know that work is actually happening.

Has Canon ever "gotten mad" before? I remember watching (and believing) a conspiracy video about MagicLantern and how the community is basically Canon sneakily releasing firmware updates while not being held accountable legally and for warranty. 

It would be nice if there was MagicLantern Wish List. There is ways to donate without money. I would happily send my EOS RP over for a month to someone, knowing that it may be a brick later or it may be c500.

Walter Schulz

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2019, 06:14:47 PM »
Has Canon ever "gotten mad" before?

Offtopic and IMO: "Before" implies Canon is mad now. Cannot follow this conclusion.
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g3gg0

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2019, 08:05:11 PM »
Also what happens with stuff sent to the ML bitcoin address?

just as a side note:

back then when we started accepting ML, the price per BTC was around $100.
thats when the most BTCs came from. the total donated amount is maybe $700. (just found my calc sheet, its 1.1k€ in donations)
today this amount is worth a whopping 14k$

we decided to keep the BTCs till we have a good reason to sell them.
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Ilia3101

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2019, 08:12:39 PM »
... 2 here, 2 over here, 1 here, 1 here, a few here, and maybe a few others I've missed :)

Well they promise in forum posts just with words, but with bountysource you actually put the money in so it's guranteed the developer will get it.

We chose not to convert it yet. Rather, whenever we needed something for ML (like some fast card, or some nonfree PDF, or... the M50 I've got recently), we simply reached our pockets, knowing the bitcoin will offset the expense somewhen - when we'll be able to sell it for a good price :)

Good thinking. John mcaffee says bitcoin will reach 1 million in 2020, so all problems should be solved then :D (no I am not serious, but if it were to happen...)

It does feel a bit "underground" to me, and I do feel the need for something better. Other developers are probably happy with their jobs, but - as I've explained back in April - I am (still) looking for better options. If this could gain enough traction to pay a few skilled developers to work on ML for just 1-2 days per week, it might - in my biased opinion - improve the development speed by at least one order of magnitude.

However, if this is going to make the project more vulnerable (as in, what if Canon won't like us turning the cheap M50 into a powerful cinema camera?), it's probably best to stay small, as a pure hobby project. Some good legal advice might clear these doubts.

Would be nice to hear from a lawyer. In my opinion nothing wrong with reverese engineering, even while making money. But maybe the law would disagree.

Pay-per-feature with all the money going to a single developer - probably not the best idea, if you ask me. Integrating that feature into the codebase, making sure it works smoothly on cameras X, Y and Z, and fails gracefully on all others, adjusting the code for future changes - in short, maintenance - is going to take significant effort, compared to simply getting some feature working on some particular model. Feature development can come with a lot of fun, but... paying some random contributor to do a bit of tweaking to some new camera port, after someone else did over 90% of the hard work? No thanks.

Very true, now I realise bounty would not a good idea. Most ML features are a big team effort so one person getting the money would not be fair.

Some food for thought.

Will consume.


Anyway, I support anything developers do. If a1ex or any of the main developers creates a way of donating, I will donate (with no expectations), and I'm sure theres quite a few people who think the same. Maybe not enough, but I don't know.

I donated a tiny amount of bitcoin on 2018-02-16 :)


Maybe ML should reach out to Canon in an official way?
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g3gg0

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2019, 08:20:18 PM »
I donated a tiny amount of bitcoin on 2018-02-16 :)

ah yes, see that 0.001 in the sheet :D
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Ilia3101

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2019, 08:51:23 PM »
Still got another 0.0016 bitcoins in my wallet :D

Will send it once the wallet synchronises (haven't touched it for months)
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a1ex

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2019, 08:10:08 AM »
Some food for thought.

Will consume.

Here's some more.

My current situation: I'm no longer able to donate my time, like I used to in the past years, but I am lucky enough to have some flexibility in managing my productive time. I am currently able to allocate 1 day per week for freelancing, without impacting my main job too much. If that freelancing job is going to pay very well (not exactly this much, but proportional to t2, t = time spent working), I might be able to squeeze 2 or 3 days in the near future. I'd very much like to spend this time on ML, like I used to in the past; however - for now - I have no choice but to work on other projects - freelancing, research, contract work, market speculation - whatever, as long as it provides food on the table. As for the spare time, outside working hours... well... family captures pretty much all of it :D

Pretty much the same situation I've described back in April - except my energy levels are much better now.

g3gg0

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2019, 09:47:52 AM »
situation:
 a) have 14k€ donations for ML in BTC waiting for a special purpose
 b) a1ex is at a point to decide between "earn money in spare time to feed the family" or "use spare time working on ML"

my proposal:
 - sell BTC
 - pay a1ex' a year of rent, warm water, a 5D4 and food from it

what would be ML today if there would have been no a1ex back then?
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a1ex

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2019, 10:09:41 AM »
That would be a large one-off expense spent on a single developer. The majority of these donations are from years ago - what are we going to do afterwards? Maybe not the best idea either :)

Some kind of continuous (e.g. monthly) support, but for the entire team, would be ideal IMO. Not for full-time involvement, as it was suggested earlier, but for something like 1-2 days per week (aka "part time"). Of course, that needs to gain momentum from the users - hence the title of the topic.

Edit - also on Twitter, alongside with a short poll.

Walter Schulz

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2019, 10:52:57 AM »
That would be a large one-off expense spent on a single developer.

So what? I will not be surprised if the only person having a problem with that will be you ... ;-)

The majority of these donations are from years ago - what are we going to do afterwards?

Let's cross that bridge when we come to it ...

(Most likely it will work the same way as before: There was money resting and nobody cared. If there is no money nobody will care.
Edit: Oh, your revenue service will do...)
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a1ex

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2019, 11:08:16 AM »
So what? I will not be surprised if the only person having a problem with that will be you ... ;-)

... which is enough for it to be a problem :)

True, while this will solve my difficulties for the current year, it will very likely postpone them into the next year. Which is why I'm looking for long-term support.

andrewhart

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2019, 11:17:39 AM »
I'm a very long time happy user, long time lurker and very rare poster and I imagine there are loads of people who have used ML to do things they could never do (I've spent many a night up a mountain doing 'holy grail' time lapses with exposure ramping and ML making sidecar files). I'd love to support the project as a thank-you for all the work time donated so far and to get ML in the hands of new users with newer cameras. From a selfish point of view, I held on to my 6D and EOS M for far longer then I would if they didn't have ML and miss it on my 5D IV and M6.

I would support a Patreon or any other kind of support method in a heart-beat.

Thanks for all the exposures..




edit: Three posts since April 17, 2014, I'm a bad person!

Levas

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2019, 12:43:38 PM »
True, while this will solve my difficulties for the current year, it will very likely postpone them into the next year. Which is why I'm looking for long-term support.

You can look for long term support, but nothing is certain in life. People can say they will donate monthly, but can stop at any time...

So at the moment you are able/willing  to work one day a week on ML (paid that is :) ).

It’s probably good to know for people here how much you want to be paid for that. If we know your price, we know how much you need for 12 weeks, or 26 weeks (half year) or any other period of your liking.

Then you can setup some sort of donation model and agree to start when there is enough money in it for example for 12 weeks of work(1day a week). Pay yourself in advance and work on ML for 12 weeks(1 day a week).

After that period you can check the current balance of donations and see if you can start another period of for example 12 weeks. Where every 12 weeks is paid to you in advance.

If people agree, you can use part of the existing bitcoin donations to start the first period(s) of work on ML.

Another thing which is important, the peoole who donate must know what your first plan is to work on.
Otherwise people are donating without knowing what you are trying to accomplish with ML.
On the moment I guess most people want to see a port on a modern Canon camera, like the M50 or 5d4 etc.

Ilia3101

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2019, 03:43:07 PM »
Very good support here and on twitter.

Some kind of continuous (e.g. monthly) support, but for the entire team, would be ideal IMO. Not for full-time involvement, as it was suggested earlier, but for something like 1-2 days per week (aka "part time"). Of course, that needs to gain momentum from the users - hence the title of the topic.

Without making any promises, I think you should try it out and see how sustainable it will be. Only by trying it will we know how much momentum it will gain.
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extremelypoorfilmaker

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2019, 06:02:33 PM »
A monthly "direct debit solution" kind of way would be cool. no strings attached. One can decide for how long and how much donate. Have no idea if it is possible to do it in bitcoins though..

nikfreak

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2019, 09:05:01 PM »
we need to get ML onto 5DMarkIV asap. I said it earlier, several times. Announce a code freeze for the existing cameras and focus solely on digic 6+ cams. There are enough devs for digic 5 cams available. That's whats going on already on the forums for months: Devs providing custom builds for the community.

I vote for trying to collect as much money as we can for a single purpose which should be porting ML onto 5D Mark IV. Then others can use that to port new cams, too. We need to buy at least one 5D Mark IV for you, a1ex. I vote for collecting 100% into your hands. 'Nuff said - don't think about the "other" devs. We are just awaiting that capable someone to do the job - who seems to be indeed only you. Once the first digic 6+ camera is suported others will folow. But for the sake of whatever or whomever just let's start to try to collect some money / donations and first see if we will get anything which will meet the requirements to do the job. If it's just hundreds of dollars: no, thanks! It's up to you. There's no must. No one expects a port for 5D Mark IV to appear in days / weeks. It could be years, who knows?

...will solve my difficulties for the current year, it will very likely postpone them into the next year. Which is why I'm looking for long-term support.

New cams will bring new users. Let's try and see what happens.

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Danne

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2019, 09:35:56 PM »
I think donations will work.
Shouting out specific cams maybe not so much. Personally I don´t see the logic porting a flag ship model but thinking start off with some more modest model. If cam model is the actual start at all. Seems a robust platform and all the hard core work coding will be the hardest step before even getting into porting. That part is not so easy for the regular user to grasp but probably what takes the most time and money. And I don´t know if anyone but a1ex could get that part working in a reasonable time frame. Interesting idea here would be to estimate timespan of work needed to be done and translate this into donations. Planning...

a1ex

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2019, 08:39:23 AM »
There are over 200 votes already on this poll. Not bad :)

I'm not going to rush anything (sorry nikfreak), but the initial reaction is encouraging. Once I'll sort out the legal details - for which I'll definitely need help - I'll announce the next steps.

Thanks everyone for the feedback!

garry23

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2019, 08:57:29 AM »
Plus positive votes from those of us who don’t use Twitter  ;)

nikfreak

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2019, 05:04:13 PM »
@Everyone: Please make some noise on other forums, social media (twitter, facebook, instagram etc.). We need more attraction and supporters for this topic. C'mon it's about the future of this great community!

Thanks in advance.
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Walter Schulz

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Re: How many people would like to donate?
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2019, 05:07:25 PM »
Against it: This is just "testing the water" and as such I think message and response came through and there is enough data for a1ex to come closer to a decision.

Really think it would be more effective/efficient not to make much noise now:
- a1ex made clear legal advice is paramount. Potential showstopper.
- We cannot offer a strategy right now. No straightforward way to spend money *now* for those who are interested. I think it is more likely to let people of the hook and/or frustrate them by splitting "noise" into a non-formal inquiry and - some time after - asking them to put their money where there mouth was some time ago.
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