Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?

[yazcui]

I have pro 16. What's the best way to convert MLV files to edit there?

[masc]

How do you define best? Fast? High Quality? Easy? ...?

Vegas 17 supports Apple ProRes and can import/export fcpxml, no idea if v16 does it as well. If yes and if Vegas is also able to relink clips like other NLEs, this could be a workflow:

1. MLVApp:
- import all MLV files
- export all clips as ProRes 422 Proxy (small and fast for cutting)
2. Vegas:
- Cut the project
- Export FCPXML
3. MLVApp:
- import FCPXML
-> the session includes only the used clips
-> correct/grade colors only in used clips
- export clips as ProRes 4444 (best quality for final)
4. Vegas:
- relink clips in media pool with the graded files
-> now the project has the correct color
- set project to ProRes 4444
- export project
5. ffmpeg:
- upscale to 4K using lanczos algorithm for better youtube quality

[reddeercity]

I used to edit in VegasPro 10 , many years ago -- you can import many different file formats

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Video: HEVC/H.265, AVC/H.264, MP4, MOV, MPEG-2, MPEG-1, AVI, WMV, XAVC-S, XAVC,
XDCAM EX, XDCAM HD, XDCAM HD 422, XDCAM ProDisc, HDCAM SR, MPEG IMX, DV, HDV, AVCHD,
Panasonic P2, Red RAW, Apple ProRes

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Image: BMP, GIF, PNG, JPG, TIFF, DPX, OpenEXR, WDP, DNG

So it depends on your computer hardware specs.
If it very fast (8 core CPU , fast SSD ,  fast GPU e.g. NVIDIA® , AMD/ATI® Radeon or Intel® GPU HD Graphics 530 series or higher) and lot of ram
Then I would look at image sequence , e.g. DPX , OpenEXR or DNG  looks like vegas support DNG's
That's what I would use (DNG's) then export a XML to Resolve and re-link to color grade .
Workflow would go like this ;
MLV file -> MLVFS (virtual dng's extracton) --> import sequence(s) cut -> export XML or FCXML -> blackmagic resolve with XML or import FCPXML in to MLV App and grade.
If your computer is slower , then I  would use ProRes 4444 or proxy prores to cut , you can use either MLVproducer or MLV App -- load your MLV in set your W/B choose the color space
e.g. Adobe or C Log export as prores 4444 or proxy prores then edit & or  grade in vegas or just edit and export a XML or FCPXML and import in either
Blackmagic Resolve or MLV App and re-link to the original DNG's and grade .

My personal workflow is MLV files -> MLVFS or MLV_Dump ( mlvfs make virtial dng's where mlv_dump extracts real dng's) -> import in to
Adobe After Effect CS6 (the best for dslr camera raw) -> sometimes edit but mainly color grade ->export to Apple ProRes 4444 XQ (which is full range not clipped like prores 4444)
or (DPX if I use Autodesk Smoke for mac) Then import in to FCPX ,  edit add FX's & final grade .

There so many way to process raw file , that comes down to your personal preferences .

[yazcui]

Ghanks. Just looking for the fastest wirkflow. I tried importing DNGs to Vegas but it crashes every time

[DeafEyeJedi]

...export to Apple ProRes 4444 XQ (which is full range not clipped like prores 4444)
or (DPX if I use Autodesk Smoke for mac) Then import in to FCPX ,  edit add FX's & final grade...

Still to this day I often dream of being able to export XQ via MLV App and I'm with you on this @reddeercity!

[JusttheGrimm]

I use VP17 and have found GoPro Cineform YUV 10bit to work very well as an intermediate codec, also the active metadata is great for grading which can be done in gopro studio quick and simple and updates to your timeline in realtime. Not sure if MLV supports it?

[masc]

MLV is a RAW file. Cineform can't be used in a MLV file.

[Danne]

I noticed ffmpeg include cineform encoding in latest version. Might be a good codec.

[masc]

Really? If ffmpeg has added it, we could use it as new encoder for transcoding. Do you have more information, or example code?

Edit: got it indeed encoded with latest ffmpeg release and a quick add in MLVApp. But... how can I playback this? VLC player plays the sound and shows a black image...

FFMPEG tells "Using MS style video codec tag, the file may be unplayable!". Anyone knows what they want to tell us with that?

[timbytheriver]

Thumbs up for Cineform codec. I used it for years. It produces a tad large file sizes though.

The active metadata concept was awesome. I'd colour correct in the Cineform-Studio app, and edit in FCP7. As you do the corrections, they show up instantly (without rendering) in the FCP timeline.

Imagine if we could harness the awesome colour of MLVApp carried in metadata through cineform files – but edit in Resolve and use its render power.

[masc]

Imagine if we could harness the awesome colour of MLVApp carried in metadata through cineform files – but edit in Resolve and use its render power.

That will never happen. How should Resolve "know" how to process a file with just metadata, if only MLVApp itself "know" how to do it. You'll be able to use the Resolve engine with it. And transcoding to Cineform needs exactly the same time like transcoding to ProRes.

Wiki tells: "Current implementations support image formatting for 10-bit 4:2:2 YUV, 12-bit 4:4:4 RGB and RGBA, and 12-bit CFA Bayer filter RAW compression"
But ffmpeg tells: "Supported pixel formats: yuv422p10le gbrp12le gbrap12le"
So no RAW possible in Cineform.

[timbytheriver]

@masc It did happen! Any cineform file that carried the cc metadata would carry those corrections through to any timeline hosted by another application. It used to work in FCP7, Vegas, Premiere, and if my memory serves me right in early Resolve. You tweaked the colour in Cineform-Studio and the correction would appear in the edit timeline. I used it for years like that.

I'd show you now, but alas the Cineform-Studio is discontinued and doesn't run on anything higher than Mountain Lion I think.

[masc]

@timbytheriver: maybe some standard corrections, but not what MLVApp does. Impossible. How should any application know how MLVApp does corrections?

[timbytheriver]

@masc The range of corrections it carried in metadata included primary, image scaling, vignette, sharpness, LUT looks. It was a mature system. How that would work in MLVApp I have no idea! 

MLVApp has the greatest out-of-the-box colours for ML. If somehow even the very basic primaries and transform adjustments in MLVApp (which are hard to match in Resolve) could be carried 'live' into the Resolve timeline, then the two would be a ML powerhouse.

Probably off-topic, I know...

[masc]

If someone like to test and to help:
I added cineform support (12bit 4:4:4) to MLVApp. Get the code from our repository. It only works for OSX without changes, because I did not add the corresponding Win&Linux version of ffmpeg to the repos (download and paste ffmpeg yourself on these platforms).
I get a cineform file out of it (MediaInfo tells). VLC player just plays the sound and shows a black image...
FFMPEG tells "Using MS style video codec tag, the file may be unplayable!". Anyone knows what they want to tell us with that?

[timbytheriver]

@masc Can confirm the result here on Mac 10.14.6

In the old days one had to download the Cineform app before the files could be played. I think there is a decoder element which is required. Owners of Premiere Pro should have this [decoder] already installed because I think Premiere ships with Cineform support. Anyone confirm?

[timbytheriver]

Found an old version of GoPro Studio on an old backup disk. Seems to have installed ok on Mojave. Can confirm that file exported from MLVApp now plays back fine so far in this app (GPS).

[masc]

Can confirm that file exported from MLVApp now plays back fine so far in this app (GPS).

Yeah! Thank you.

[Danne]

That´s fast masc . Tested exporting a cineform file from mlv app and it opens up in davinci resolve. So it´s actually 12bit 4:4:4? That would exceed what we are getting with ffmpeg prores. Think it´s 10bit even if it says otherwise.

EDIT:
Avg Bitrate                     : 726 Mbps 

[masc]

That´s fast masc . Tested exporting a cineform file from mlv app and it opens up in davinci resolve. So it´s actually 12bit 4:4:4? That would exceed what we are getting with ffmpeg prores. Think it´s 10bit even if it says otherwise.

EDIT:
Avg Bitrate                     : 726 Mbps 

Still have a black screen Resolve can playback? Yay... will try. Using AVFoundation ProRes 4444 export you'll also get 12bit. But Cineform will be 2.5x as large, therefor (at default settings) MLVApp export is about 2x faster.

[Danne]

I exported ffmpeg prores highest kostya codec setting and compared sizes and bitrates. Cineform bigger but not really 2.5 times bigger. More like a 10% increase from my testfiles. Output differ some. Well, nice to have another high end codec in Mlv App.

Cineform:
Avg Bitrate                     : 810 Mbps

FFmpeg prores:
Avg Bitrate                     : 727 Mbps

[masc]

Here in my test, 273Mbps (ProRes 4444) vs. 691Mbps (Cineform). I have success with Resolve - but - diashow! No smooth playback.

[Danne]

I have success with Resolve - but - diashow! No smooth playback.

I guess it´s a more or less strict nle format. Wonder if it outperforms prores.

[masc]

Cineform 10bit brings very different (way brighter) colors than Cineform 12bit. And even in the lowest quality setting I can't get realtime playback in Resolve.

[Kharak]

Cineform always plays smooth for me in Resolve. be it 12 bit, 10 bit, highest or lowest. Btw Quality set at 'Highest' is total overkill or 'Film Scan 2' as it was originally called, GoPro themselves called Film Scan 2 total overkill. High being Quality: Film Scan 1. You really need to pixel peep the darkest pixels to see any difference between the two, Film Scan 2 being much higher bitrate than Film Scan 1. You notice more difference between High and Medium and so on, but High and Highest are basically indentical.

You should check your GPU settings under Preferences, not sure what you are running on, but Resolve might be set to OpenCL when it should be Cuda/Metal or vice versa?

Regarding Exposure change between 10 and 12 bit, I have not seen this personally. Are you converting MLV to Cineform in MLV App ?

If you render from Resolve, in the delivery page you can set Colorspace and Gamma tags for the rendered files which can be your best friend. I presume there is some sort of gamma shift. Try setting CS and Gamma to sRGB or Rec709, depending what you are watching on.

[masc]

@Kharak: thank you for the help. I exported also in lowest quality setting and got no realtime playback. There is just OpenCL available, because I don't have a graphics card. But why a GPU is needed to just playback a FHD video with CineForm? With ProRes, I can playback a 4K file on this machine.
Both files (10 and 12bit) were exported with identical quality settings, and with identical input data, from MLVApp. Only the 12bit/10bit setting was different. You could test yourself also with the latest ffmpeg executable and any video file.

[timbytheriver]

@masc

Agree with @Kharak that basic Cineform 1080p should always play like butter as it was designed for lower powered systems I believe (apart from the Film Scan flavours!) If in Mac, there used to be a system preference pane that controlled certain codec functions. Might check there if appropriate?

Re QT gamma shifts in Resolve/Mac read this thread on the Blackmagic Forum. The definitive answer:  https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=114047

[masc]

@timbytheriver: Quicktime can't playback those files at all, same for VLC. The only application which shows an image is Resolve, so the codec support seems to come with Resolve. But no idea what exactly Resolve does here - same for ffmpeg. Is there any way to make the tags and metadata visible? I just see this with MediaInfo:

ID :
1
Format :
CineForm
Codec ID :
CFHD
Codec ID/Info :
CineForm High-Definition (HD) wavelet codec
Duration :
1 s 0 ms
Bit rate mode :
Variable
Bit rate :
253 Mb/s
Width :
1 856 pixels
Height :
1 044 pixels
Display aspect ratio :
16:9
Frame rate mode :
Constant
Frame rate :
25.000 FPS
Color space :
YUV
Scan type :
Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) :
5.214
Stream size :
30.1 MiB (99%)
Color primaries :
BT.709
Transfer characteristics :
BT.709
Matrix coefficients :
BT.709

Edit: one funny thing is: if I resize to a width of 1920 or 3840 pixels, MPV player is able to show the 10bit and the 12bit clip. Color is identical in both and identical to MLVApp.

[Kharak]

I have never rendered cineform to a lower res than HD. But i have rendered to every weird ratio and resolution above HD and it always played nicely (except the 8k ones).

Cineform should be resolution agnostic unlike DNxHD, but apparently it has quirks with < HD res.

As you know, Resolve gets its power from the Gpu and all the Decoding is done by the GPU.

How does a dng sequence play for you in resolve?

[Danne]

@kharak, @timbytheriver.
To confirm buttersmooth playback could you export and test a few files from mlv app or ffmpeg directly? Or maybe masc could provide you with a few files.

[timbytheriver]

@Danne Happy to render out to Cineform if @masc requires. Don't know how to render using ffmpeg command line though.

I had to remove my re-install of Cineform Studio from the other day as it kept crashing. Confirm that QuickTime OSX doesn't play CF files natively (even with CF Studio installed) – it does some sort of converting in that case. The player that did use to work natively with CF was the old QT7 player – long gone I believe.

The man who co-invented/engineered CF is David Newman https://cineform.blogspot.com/ He might be able to help out – and would certainly know about the active metadata side. He's very approachable.

PS Clarifying: also for me CF only plays [smoothly] in Resolve. All other players don't play at all, whether CF Studio is installed or not. QTX player converts during load if CF is installed – doesn't play at all once CF Studio is removed.

[Kharak]

Yes, i can. With mlv app 1.11?

@timby try MPV player.

[timbytheriver]

@Kharak Thanks. Which build should I use? (on Mac) https://mpv.io/installation/

[Danne]

Yes, i can. With mlv app 1.11?

@timby try MPV player.

If on mac you could compile using my compiler on mlv app first page.

[Kharak]

@Kharak Thanks. Which build should I use? (on Mac) https://mpv.io/installation/

I am on Windows, so i cant recommend a version for you, sorry. But I think they are all more or less the same at the core, some versions might have scripts or plugins enabled. But the player should play anything you throw at it and without the dreaded gammashifts from QT and VLC.

[timbytheriver]

Thanks @Danne @Kharak

Have installed MPV player. CF file rendered from MLVApp crashes it. The only app playing the file correctly is Resolve so far.

[Kharak]

sorry, I thought Cineform export was incorporated in Mlv app 1.11.

I never use ffmpeg, can you give me a ffmpeg command line for exporting cineform from MLV(if possible)?

[Kharak]

Thanks @Danne @Kharak

Have installed MPV player. CF file rendered from MLVApp crashes it. The only app playing the file correctly is Resolve so far.

Can you render DNG - Cineform from Resolve and play it with MPV, just to make sure there is no OS issues causing this.

edit: https://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Encoders-Converter-DIVX-Related/GoPro-CineForm-Decoder.shtml (win only) I have this, but I never felt this helped me. It did not seem like any difference having the decoder running or not running, my computer played the CF files no matter in MPV.

re-edit: The last ~20 posts should have its own thread. Will be hard looking this up via Vegas Pro thread in the future.

[timbytheriver]

Can you render DNG - Cineform from Resolve and play it with MPV, just to make sure there is no OS issues causing this.

Hah! That worked. Thanks @Kharak MPV plays the CF file rendered YUV 10bit and RGB 16bit option from Resolve from DNGs.

[masc]

As you know, Resolve gets its power from the Gpu and all the Decoding is done by the GPU.

Yes, I know... the main problem why it works on a few computer around me.

How does a dng sequence play for you in resolve?

At 1/4 resolution it is smooth. But for DNG, Resolve has to decode and to process, while Cinform has just to be decoded. ProRes 4K runs smooth!

Yes, i can. With mlv app 1.11?

Nope. You need the latest revision. You have to compile yourself.

I never use ffmpeg, can you give me a ffmpeg command line for exporting cineform from MLV(if possible)?

Hmm... try something like: (in MLVApp I use 2 hand full of more options...)

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ffmpeg -i input.mov -c:v cfhd -quality 12 -pix_fmt gbrp12le output.mov

Have installed MPV player. CF file rendered from MLVApp crashes it. The only app playing the file correctly is Resolve so far.

I used 0.28.2 (latest working on Mavericks). I had no single crash with it. But diashows, or black screen. Therefor the color is way better than in Resolve.

A 12bit Cineform file processed by MLVApp:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhwmqqtnunw01z4/M23-1205.mov?dl=0
LOL... how great is that? Dropbox can play it back very smooth!

[Kharak]

Btw, i believe MPV also requires a GPU to run properly.

Does it play other codecs? Like dnxhd, h264 and prores?

[allemyr]

You need less GPU power then you think for 1080p CDNG at 25fps for realtime playback. Ofcourse integrated doesnt work but any GPU Nvidia 780Ti and up manage.

I have realtime playback in Ultra HD 25fps CDNG and doing superscale that involves noise reduction and sharpening. But then I have my computer for other stuff then Resolve sometimes with several 250W GPUs.

[masc]

Does it play other codecs? Like dnxhd, h264 and prores?

Yes, plays very smooth.

[sahrenity]

Speaking of GoPro Studio, how does the last version works? I recall having constant freezes

[dorelgin]

What about using something a bit less complex? https://www.movavi.com/ has a good video editor, as I recall it's free. Maybe it'll suit.