Author Topic: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?  (Read 2738 times)

yazcui

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Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« on: August 27, 2019, 08:09:38 AM »
I have pro 16. What's the best way to convert MLV files to edit there?

masc

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2019, 08:21:55 AM »
How do you define best? Fast? High Quality? Easy? ...?

Vegas 17 supports Apple ProRes and can import/export fcpxml, no idea if v16 does it as well. If yes and if Vegas is also able to relink clips like other NLEs, this could be a workflow:

1. MLVApp:
- import all MLV files
- export all clips as ProRes 422 Proxy (small and fast for cutting)
2. Vegas:
- Cut the project
- Export FCPXML
3. MLVApp:
- import FCPXML
-> the session includes only the used clips
-> correct/grade colors only in used clips
- export clips as ProRes 4444 (best quality for final)
4. Vegas:
- relink clips in media pool with the graded files
-> now the project has the correct color
- set project to ProRes 4444
- export project
5. ffmpeg:
- upscale to 4K using lanczos algorithm for better youtube quality
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reddeercity

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2019, 09:10:43 AM »
I used to edit in VegasPro 10 , many years ago -- you can import many different file formats
 
Code: [Select]
Video: HEVC/H.265, AVC/H.264, MP4, MOV, MPEG-2, MPEG-1, AVI, WMV, XAVC-S, XAVC,
XDCAM EX, XDCAM HD, XDCAM HD 422, XDCAM ProDisc, HDCAM SR, MPEG IMX, DV, HDV, AVCHD,
Panasonic P2, Red RAW, Apple ProRes

Code: [Select]
Image: BMP, GIF, PNG, JPG, TIFF, DPX, OpenEXR, WDP, DNG
So it depends on your computer hardware specs.
If it very fast (8 core CPU , fast SSD ,  fast GPU e.g. NVIDIA® , AMD/ATI® Radeon or Intel® GPU HD Graphics 530 series or higher) and lot of ram
Then I would look at image sequence , e.g. DPX , OpenEXR or DNG  :) looks like vegas support DNG's
That's what I would use (DNG's) then export a XML to Resolve and re-link to color grade .
Workflow would go like this ;
 MLV file -> MLVFS (virtual dng's extracton) --> import sequence(s) cut -> export XML or FCXML -> blackmagic resolve with XML or import FCPXML in to MLV App and grade.
If your computer is slower , then I  would use ProRes 4444 or proxy prores to cut , you can use either MLVproducer or MLV App -- load your MLV in set your W/B choose the color space
e.g. Adobe or C Log export as prores 4444 or proxy prores then edit & or  grade in vegas or just edit and export a XML or FCPXML and import in either
Blackmagic Resolve or MLV App and re-link to the original DNG's and grade .

My personal workflow is MLV files -> MLVFS or MLV_Dump ( mlvfs make virtial dng's where mlv_dump extracts real dng's) -> import in to
Adobe After Effect CS6 (the best for dslr camera raw) -> sometimes edit but mainly color grade ->export to Apple ProRes 4444 XQ (which is full range not clipped like prores 4444)
or (DPX if I use Autodesk Smoke for mac) Then import in to FCPX ,  edit add FX's & final grade .

There so many way to process raw file , that comes down to your personal preferences .


yazcui

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2019, 03:56:55 PM »
Ghanks. Just looking for the fastest wirkflow. I tried importing DNGs to Vegas but it crashes every time :(

DeafEyeJedi

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Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2019, 05:16:05 AM »
...export to Apple ProRes 4444 XQ (which is full range not clipped like prores 4444)
or (DPX if I use Autodesk Smoke for mac) Then import in to FCPX ,  edit add FX's & final grade...

Still to this day I often dream of being able to export XQ via MLV App and I’m with you on this @reddeercity! ;)
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JusttheGrimm

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2020, 03:00:46 AM »
I use VP17 and have found GoPro Cineform YUV 10bit to work very well as an intermediate codec, also the active metadata is great for grading which can be done in gopro studio quick and simple and updates to your timeline in realtime. Not sure if MLV supports it?

masc

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2020, 08:32:07 AM »
MLV is a RAW file. Cineform can't be used in a MLV file.
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Danne

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2020, 11:01:35 AM »
I noticed ffmpeg include cineform encoding in latest version. Might be a good codec.

masc

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2020, 11:05:12 AM »
Really? If ffmpeg has added it, we could use it as new encoder for transcoding. Do you have more information, or example code?

Edit: got it indeed encoded with latest ffmpeg release and a quick add in MLVApp. But... how can I playback this? VLC player plays the sound and shows a black image... :D

FFMPEG tells "Using MS style video codec tag, the file may be unplayable!". Anyone knows what they want to tell us with that?
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timbytheriver

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2020, 11:49:45 AM »
Thumbs up for Cineform codec. I used it for years. It produces a tad large file sizes though.

The active metadata concept was awesome. I'd colour correct in the Cineform-Studio app, and edit in FCP7. As you do the corrections, they show up instantly (without rendering) in the FCP timeline.

Imagine if we could harness the awesome colour of MLVApp carried in metadata through cineform files – but edit in Resolve and use its render power.
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masc

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2020, 11:55:17 AM »
Imagine if we could harness the awesome colour of MLVApp carried in metadata through cineform files – but edit in Resolve and use its render power.
That will never happen. How should Resolve "know" how to process a file with just metadata, if only MLVApp itself "know" how to do it. You'll be able to use the Resolve engine with it. And transcoding to Cineform needs exactly the same time like transcoding to ProRes.

Wiki tells: "Current implementations support image formatting for 10-bit 4:2:2 YUV, 12-bit 4:4:4 RGB and RGBA, and 12-bit CFA Bayer filter RAW compression"
But ffmpeg tells: "Supported pixel formats: yuv422p10le gbrp12le gbrap12le"
So no RAW possible in Cineform.
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timbytheriver

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2020, 12:02:06 PM »
@masc It did happen! :) Any cineform file that carried the cc metadata would carry those corrections through to any timeline hosted by another application. It used to work in FCP7, Vegas, Premiere, and if my memory serves me right in early Resolve. You tweaked the colour in Cineform-Studio and the correction would appear in the edit timeline. I used it for years like that.

I'd show you now, but alas the Cineform-Studio is discontinued and doesn't run on anything higher than Mountain Lion I think. :(
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masc

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2020, 12:05:23 PM »
@timbytheriver: maybe some standard corrections, but not what MLVApp does. Impossible. How should any application know how MLVApp does corrections?
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timbytheriver

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2020, 12:12:16 PM »
@masc The range of corrections it carried in metadata included primary, image scaling, vignette, sharpness, LUT looks. It was a mature system. How that would work in MLVApp I have no idea!  :o

MLVApp has the greatest out-of-the-box colours for ML. If somehow even the very basic primaries and transform adjustments in MLVApp (which are hard to match in Resolve) could be carried 'live' into the Resolve timeline, then the two would be a ML powerhouse. :)

Probably off-topic, I know…
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masc

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2020, 12:49:43 PM »
If someone like to test and to help:
I added cineform support (12bit 4:4:4) to MLVApp. Get the code from our repository. It only works for OSX without changes, because I did not add the corresponding Win&Linux version of ffmpeg to the repos (download and paste ffmpeg yourself on these platforms).
I get a cineform file out of it (MediaInfo tells). VLC player just plays the sound and shows a black image... :D
FFMPEG tells "Using MS style video codec tag, the file may be unplayable!". Anyone knows what they want to tell us with that?
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timbytheriver

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2020, 01:14:06 PM »
@masc Can confirm the result here on Mac 10.14.6

In the old days one had to download the Cineform app before the files could be played. I think there is a decoder element which is required. Owners of Premiere Pro should have this [decoder] already installed because I think Premiere ships with Cineform support. Anyone confirm?
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timbytheriver

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2020, 01:29:20 PM »
Found an old version of GoPro Studio on an old backup disk. Seems to have installed ok on Mojave. Can confirm that file exported from MLVApp now plays back fine so far in this app (GPS).



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masc

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2020, 01:40:22 PM »
Can confirm that file exported from MLVApp now plays back fine so far in this app (GPS).
Yeah! Thank you.
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Danne

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2020, 02:18:02 PM »
That´s fast masc :). Tested exporting a cineform file from mlv app and it opens up in davinci resolve. So it´s actually 12bit 4:4:4? That would exceed what we are getting with ffmpeg prores. Think it´s 10bit even if it says otherwise.

EDIT:
Avg Bitrate                     : 726 Mbps  :o

masc

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2020, 03:19:48 PM »
That´s fast masc :). Tested exporting a cineform file from mlv app and it opens up in davinci resolve. So it´s actually 12bit 4:4:4? That would exceed what we are getting with ffmpeg prores. Think it´s 10bit even if it says otherwise.

EDIT:
Avg Bitrate                     : 726 Mbps  :o
:) Still have a black screen :) Resolve can playback? Yay... will try. Using AVFoundation ProRes 4444 export you'll also get 12bit. But Cineform will be 2.5x as large, therefor (at default settings) MLVApp export is about 2x faster.
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Danne

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2020, 03:27:55 PM »
I exported ffmpeg prores highest kostya codec setting and compared sizes and bitrates. Cineform bigger but not really 2.5 times bigger. More like a 10% increase from my testfiles. Output differ some. Well, nice to have another high end codec in Mlv App.

Cineform:
Avg Bitrate                     : 810 Mbps

FFmpeg prores:
Avg Bitrate                     : 727 Mbps

masc

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2020, 03:37:34 PM »
Here in my test, 273Mbps (ProRes 4444) vs. 691Mbps (Cineform). I have success with Resolve - but - diashow! No smooth playback.
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Danne

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2020, 03:45:29 PM »
I have success with Resolve - but - diashow! No smooth playback.
I guess it´s a more or less strict nle format. Wonder if it outperforms prores.

masc

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2020, 04:15:07 PM »
Cineform 10bit brings very different (way brighter) colors than Cineform 12bit. And even in the lowest quality setting I can't get realtime playback in Resolve.
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Kharak

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Re: Vegas Pro - What workflow do people use?
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2020, 09:08:47 PM »
Cineform always plays smooth for me in Resolve. be it 12 bit, 10 bit, highest or lowest. Btw Quality set at 'Highest' is total overkill or 'Film Scan 2' as it was originally called, GoPro themselves called Film Scan 2 total overkill. High being Quality: Film Scan 1. You really need to pixel peep the darkest pixels to see any difference between the two, Film Scan 2 being much higher bitrate than Film Scan 1. You notice more difference between High and Medium and so on, but High and Highest are basically indentical.

You should check your GPU settings under Preferences, not sure what you are running on, but Resolve might be set to OpenCL when it should be Cuda/Metal or vice versa?

Regarding Exposure change between 10 and 12 bit, I have not seen this personally. Are you converting MLV to Cineform in MLV App ?

If you render from Resolve, in the delivery page you can set Colorspace and Gamma tags for the rendered files which can be your best friend. I presume there is some sort of gamma shift. Try setting CS and Gamma to sRGB or Rec709, depending what you are watching on.
once you go raw you never go back