Author Topic: Do I need to do a 16 bit  (Read 336 times)

michelle.k28

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Do I need to do a 16 bit
« on: July 09, 2019, 11:02:37 AM »
Hello.

 I'm a professional Editor and new to Magic Lantern.  I have an older (maxed out, but still slow) HP Z600 workstation at home to test out and grade my 11-10 bit 3.5k RAW footage from my newly bought 5D Mark III.  Super excited about it all.  I've been reading a TON on this forum, but would like to know if it's necessary to do the conversion to 16 bit CDNG files before bringing into Resolve or After Effects.  My preference is to use Resolve.  Currently I'm using Resolve 12 because it's the last version that will utilize my Quadro 4000 GPU.  I haven't tried the ACR-->AE method yet.  Resolve 12 seems to load and playback the untouched 11-10 bit DNG image sequences just fine, but I've read on this forum that Resolve doesn't handle DNGs properly unless they are 12 or 16 bit.  Is this true and how so?  Should I be adding the step of converting to 16 bit first for Resolve to accurately read and make color adjustments?  Black Magic says it only supports 12bit or 16 bit CDNGs, so what is going on under the hood really?  Also, is it true that the ACR-->AE method requires a 16 bit conversion or it won't work? 

That's a lot of questions.. Hope that someone could tell me all that, thanks in advance!

masc

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Re: Do I need to do a 16 bit
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2019, 03:08:59 PM »
If you want to grade RAW footage in AE or Resolve, there is just one way: convert MLV to CDNG before, because both can't handle MLV files.

You could grade in a graading tool for MLV files like MlRawViewer, MLVProducer, MLVApp, ... , export e.g. ProRes and bring this to Resolve. Here you don't need 16bit files.
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dfort

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Re: Do I need to do a 16 bit
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2019, 07:16:47 PM »
First of all, even though you shoot in 11-10 bit when converting to cdng the apps will save in a different bit depth. Not sure what bit depth right off the top of my head but they have been reported to work fine in all versions of Resolve.

Users have been reporting some good results using MLVFS with Resolve. What is cool about this workflow is that you are using the original MLV files and "virtual" cdng files.

The other MLV processing apps can also produce a dng image sequence but any color grading you do will be lost when moving to Resolve. I also found that when grading the dng files in ACR the grading will be lost when the same files are opened in Resolve

You can also do a quick color grade first (at least check the white balance) and save to another file format like Prores, Avid DNxHD/DNxHR or other standard format, preferably in some sort of flat log color space like Arri Log C for final color grading in Resolve.

Yeah, there are several workflows you can use. Try a few and see which works best for you.

I'm a professional Editor...

Have you worked on anything we might have seen? Here's a link to my IMDB page.
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Kharak

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Re: Do I need to do a 16 bit
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2019, 08:11:17 PM »
You dont have to convert to another bitdepth, if resolve handles it as you say and you dont see any obvious deficiency in the image i would say all is in order.

My understanding of the lower bit depth mlv’s e.g. 8-11 bit or 12 bit is that they are saved as the full 14 bit mlv, only that the last 2, 4 or what have you bits are null data. Also when converting to dng. On paper a 14 bit and 9 bit mlv “look the same” but one lacks the actual data. Thats why resolve probably works fine with the truncated dng’s. But someone can correct me if i am wrong, i dont shoot lower bit depth, just believe i read this somewhere on the forum about the “fake 14 bit”.

But resolve works with 14 bit dng, so there definitely is no only 12 or 16 bit for it to work.
once you go raw you never go back

KirbyLikes525

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Re: Do I need to do a 16 bit
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2019, 03:56:22 PM »
The cDNG workflow didn't work for me because MLV App will not export raw processing changes for cDNG (exposure, color profile, etc) but if you export to Apple ProRes you can remove the AE portion from your workflow entirely and go straight to resolve (I use the ffmpeg kostya codec to 422). And unchecking 'Use Camera Maxtrix' and selecting Rec. 709 renders a nice flat video for color grading.
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masc

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Re: Do I need to do a 16 bit
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2019, 04:18:43 PM »
@KirbyLikes525:

If you choose cDNG export, you choose to adjust exposure, color profile, etc in another grading app.

And unchecking 'Use Camera Maxtrix' and selecting Rec. 709 renders a nice flat video for color grading.
I would not recommend unchecking 'Use Camera Maxtrix' in general, because you'll just get incorrect colors (exception is temperature < ~4000K). Rec.709 will also mostly just cut some areas of bright and dark colors. Better use a log or BMD profile if you use Resolve afterwards.
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KirbyLikes525

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Re: Do I need to do a 16 bit
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2019, 05:56:56 PM »
If you choose cDNG export, you choose to adjust exposure, color profile, etc in another grading app.
I would not recommend unchecking 'Use Camera Maxtrix' in general, because you'll just get incorrect colors (exception is temperature < ~4000K). Rec.709 will also mostly just cut some areas of bright and dark colors. Better use a log or BMD profile if you use Resolve afterwards.

Rec. 709 is the color profile for HD video. Not saying you can't use log or BMD but I personally found Rec.709 to be the most consistent as far as grading and (lack of) noise. I uncheck 'use camera matrix' because that's what the MLV Play looks like in Live View playback, nice and flat, while the camera matrix saturates the colors (I'm talking about 14bit Live View preview since 10 and 12 bit can't be previewed in Live View on my build). And I dare say my colors are more accurate with no camera matrix and Rec. 709 AFTER grading and I'd rather have more control of the color in Premiere when I edit. This is just my reasons for my workflow that I'm offering since the OP's hasn't set theirs yet  :)
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masc

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Re: Do I need to do a 16 bit
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2019, 07:38:00 PM »
Rec. 709 is the color profile for HD video.
Sure, but the range of RAW seems to be larger, that's why shadows and highlights are cut here and there.
I uncheck 'use camera matrix' because that's what the MLV Play looks like in Live View playback, nice and flat, while the camera matrix saturates the colors (I'm talking about 14bit Live View preview since 10 and 12 bit can't be previewed in Live View on my build). And I dare say my colors are more accurate with no camera matrix and Rec. 709 AFTER grading and I'd rather have more control of the color in Premiere when I edit. This is just my reasons for my workflow that I'm offering since the OP's hasn't set theirs yet  :)
Nothing is wrong - just your eyes must like it. Incorrect colors might be a style (wrong does not mean that red is green). But if one likes correct colors, why correcting many slightly wrong tones if you can have it with one checkbox? If it is too saturated for you, you can use the saturation slider. This should also decrease noise. Grading in Premiere should be easier then too.
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KirbyLikes525

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Re: Do I need to do a 16 bit
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2019, 08:40:52 PM »
Sure, but the range of RAW seems to be larger, that's why shadows and highlights are cut here and there.

Agreed, it is.

Another reason I suggested 709 is because they said they're a professional editor. That's the profile they typically see from other dedicated video cameras and it'll behave consistent in that way when grading.

Nothing is wrong - just your eyes must like it. Incorrect colors might be a style (wrong does not mean that red is green). But if one likes correct colors, why correcting many slightly wrong tones if you can have it with one checkbox? If it is too saturated for you, you can use the saturation slider. This should also decrease noise. Grading in Premiere should be easier then too.

Point taken  :)
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