Author Topic: Re: Canon 7D Mark I  (Read 5270 times)

IDA_ML

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Re: Canon 7D Mark I
« on: May 10, 2019, 07:16:06 PM »
Now that it became quite clear that the good old EOS 7D is not likely to receive further ML development:

https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=23738.msg214441#msg214441

and will probably be forgotten soon, I have decided to post a video, filmed with this camera, which I consider as its "swan song" (see download link below).  Many people ask me why am I so crazy about this old camera, released about 10 years ago.  Well, watch the video and judge by yourself.  The first 3:26 minutes of it were filmed with the 7D at 1728x972 resolution using the 3x3 sensor reading method meaning that the video contains just 1/9-th (or 11%) of the sensor information.  Despite this low resolution and mediocre sensor reading, when I watch it on my 30-inch screen from a distance of about 2m, I have the feeling that the clips were shot on Kodak Ekta Chrome color slide film.  The colors, detail and dynamic range of the 7D are just incredible.  I have also included clips from the EOS 100D, (starting at 3:26), for comparison.  Despite the fact that some of those clips were shot at 2320x1306 resolution using the much more superior 1x1 sensor reading method in the crop mode that provides 100% of the cropped sensor information, the 100D clips look much flatter.  You can distinguish the 2320x1306 clips from the ones shot at 1736x976 resolution on the 100D by closely watching the resolution in the areas of fine detail (vegetation, tree branches, etc.).

In my opinion, from all ML-capable cameras, the 7D is the one that provides overall RAW video quality and look closest to the Arri Alexa, considered to be Hollywood's  top notch standard for digital video quality and cinematic film look:


The video that I am posting here was shot with the EOS 35/F2 IS, the 24/F2,8 IS and the EF-S 18-55/F3,5-5,6 IS lenses on both cameras hand held.  I also used a variable ND filter in the clips shot at bright sun shine to avoid stopping down the lenses to more than F11 where diffraction starts softening the image.

My workflow:
========

1) Converting the MLV files to virtual cDNG sequences using MLVFS which now cleans 100D's focus pixels quite well.  Thank you, Dfort!
2) Color correction and editing in DaVinci Resolve 15 Lite
3) Export to MPEG 4 in 1920x1080 resolution

Since I don't like what YouTube does to my videos, I have uploaded the video to a Cloud.  Here is the download link:

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/3Yw3/MbAHmSoSk

If you wish to watch it in its highest quality, please download it to your computer using the "Скачать" button in the top left of the page from the above link.  Enjoy and let me know what you think.

domo94

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Re: Re: Canon 7D Mark I
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2019, 06:32:06 AM »
Nooo, don't tell me that development is over for the 7D.

That's far from what I want to hear. :(

I'm currently making another edit on a car show called "Tuner Evo".

All filmed 10bit 60fps with the latest *stable*ish 7D build.

Many clips suffered some corrupted frames, but still 98% usable footage.

dfort

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Re: Re: Canon 7D Mark I
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2019, 08:21:50 AM »
EOS 7D is not likely to receive further ML development:

You are using one of my experimental builds for the 7D. Isn't that proof that there is still some development going on for this camera? Also note that when any branch gets updated, the 7D will probably also be updated.

In my opinion, from all ML-capable cameras, the 7D is the one that provides overall RAW video quality and look closest to the Arri Alexa, considered to be Hollywood's  top notch standard for digital video quality and cinematic film look:


Wow, that is a long and uninformative video. They keep repeating the same boring shots over and over again. I thought they were going to compare the 7D with the Arri Alexa but that's not the case.

(Nitpick: The Alexa Mini isn't considered Hollywood's "top notch" standard. It is mostly used for documentaries and as a "B" camera.)

IDA_ML

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Re: Re: Canon 7D Mark I
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2019, 06:17:01 PM »
(Nitpick: The Alexa Mini isn't considered Hollywood's "top notch" standard. It is mostly used for documentaries and as a "B" camera.)

Dfort,

You can't help opposing to every word I say, can you?  I understand that the look of a video is of little or no importance to you but can't you accept the fact that there are many film makers out there for whom the artistic look of the video is of major importance, in fact so important that they are prepared to pay 45k US$ just for the camera body alone to get that look?  If you check out this article:

https://ymcinema.com/2019/03/28/arri-alexa-mini-lf-announced-and-shes-a-beauty/

you will read this:

"The ARRI Mini was accepted beyond all expectation by cinematographers that pursued after the ARRI artistic look within the efficient and compact form factor of the Mini. That’s why the Mini has become the most wanted camera by DPs. There are tons of Hollywood feature films that were shot entirely on the ALEXA Mini as the 1st camera. Moreover, the ARRI Mini was the most desired camera from all ARRI’s lineup. We made some research regarding the films that were shot on the ARRI Mini, some of them won Oscar for Best Picture and Cinematography."

And also this:

"Resolution is not the most important factor, but image quality. The ability for an image to look beautiful, artistic with a wide dynamic range. The characteristics of skin tones, tonal, colors, whites, blacks, and precision. Those are matter. ARRI knows that. Good cinematographers know that."

I would just add to that: "So do 7D shooters ..."

As far as my video from post #1575 is concerned, it is not a Hollywood production but just a humble amateur video.  It just aimed at comparing the video look of two cameras that I own - the 7D and the 100D.  That's all.  I am sorry to see that you found my shots boring and uninformative but please understand that I do not have access to a 45K US$ Arri Alexa to compare it side by side with the look of the 7D.  I just shared my opinion, based on a lot of Alexa footage that I watched on the net, that among all ML capable cameras, the look of the 7D is closest to the cinematic look of the Arri Alexa.  I may be wrong and you are very welcome to proof me wrong, but I repeat, this is just my opinion!
 

baladev

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Re: Re: Canon 7D Mark I
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2019, 04:37:16 AM »
@IDA_ML

Dfort was referring to the youtube video you posted a link to when saying that it was boring and uninformative and I think he's right. These guys just kept repeating themselves without showing much proof or doing any comparisons.

90-95% of the color quality you get from a camera is in the software because the picture we get from a sensor is b/w. In case of any compressed/processed formats it's the jpg engine of a camera that is responsible for debayering and recreation/interpretation of color. In case of raw it's either ACR or DR or some other program that does that. So, no magic here. Footage processed in a similar way from cameras of the same maker using similar tech will look the same. Lens coatings and quality of glass used will have much larger effect. AFAIK the sensor inside 7D is not different enough from other similar specd Canon sensors of the era to produce any visible difference.

IDA_ML

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Re: Re: Canon 7D Mark I
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2019, 11:11:39 AM »
AFAIK the sensor inside 7D is not different enough from other similar specd Canon sensors of the era to produce any visible difference.

I totally disagree.  Personally,  I have compared footages of high-contrast scenes shot side by side on the 7D and 100D.  They were processed in ACR afterwards.  I found that the 7D has at least 2 stops higher dynamic range and better roll-off in the highlights compared to the 100D.  Highlights get blown up much more easily in the 100D and it is impossible to recover them.  The 7D does a much better job in that respect.  Unfortunately, I do not have that test footages any more.  I ran those tests several years ago. 

As far as the look of the video from both cameras is concerned, please watch my video again.  The second part of it, (after 3:26 min.) was shot on the 100D.  The differences are quite obvious, to me at least.  100D footage looks much flatter and colors are quite dull too.  Footages from both cameras were processed in exactly the same way in MLVFS and DaVinci Resolve, (in its Camera RAW module).

Dfort,

Sorry for the misunderstanding.  I thought, you mean my video.  Here ia a better one shot on the Alexa Mini, that I enjoyed very much:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=21&v=UtmNpRU96v8 

dfort

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Re: Re: Canon 7D Mark I
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2019, 03:42:56 AM »
In debug I noticed that two memory patches appear when in live view. From what I read on other camera model threads this appears to be normal?

Yes, this is needed in order to get the 7D (also 50D and 5D2) working with 10/12bit raw.

I can't get a clean "stop record" (in crop rec mode, any res). The record icon stays on the screen and I have to exit live view, reboot camera. But the files are good. 2496x1198 @24fps 10 bit no problem.

In non-crop mode press record locks camera. Have to R&R battery to clear.

Cannot get mlv_play to load at boot time. (granted it is so slow playing back files this size, but it has use in verifying framing in crop rec mode)

In debug I noticed that two memory patches appear when in live view. From what I read on other camera model threads this appears to be normal?

Finally some useful feedback!

I made a new build and posted it on my downloads page. This works with both mlv_rec and mlv_lite and seems to be more stable than previous builds. In order to use mlv_play with reduced bit files you'll also need to load the raw_twk module.

As far as comparing the 7D to the Alexa Mini or Mini LF, that's nonsense as is saying that the development on the 7D has stopped. If you claim that the 7D has 2 stops more dynamic range and better highlight roll-off than other ML supported cameras, prove it by doing a side-by-side comparison. Here's a couple of examples of nonsense done right, a side-by-side comparison between the Mini and the BMPCC 4K and this one comparing the Mini with a Sony a7S II.

One more piece of nonsense -- personal attacks shouldn't be tolerated on the forum.

Returning to the offtopic discussion on the Arri Alexa Mini -- digging into Yossy Mendelovich's magazine it does look like a couple of Oscar nominated features were shot on the Mini. Granted it is an awesome camera but that doesn't mean that the Mini is the number one favored camera in Hollywood. Three of the nominated features were shot on film and five shot on other Arri Alexa models. It did get me wondering who is this guy who basically re-publishes manufacturers' press releases. He's not on IMDB but in his publication there is a shot of him looking into a mirror:



What is that camera he's holding? Let's flip the image and take a closer look.



Ah--a 7D. Ok, we're back on topic.  ;D