Author Topic: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML  (Read 1501 times)

2blackbar

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This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« on: April 04, 2019, 08:09:51 PM »
Set it to 1/45, go to ML Movie menu, select image fine tuning- shutter fine tuning, set it to -1.03 and thats it.It floats between 47and 48 so its probably close to 47.952 exactly 180degree from 23.976 how its supposed to be.
It wont show 48 when you record raw but it works, when you record h264 then it shows its 48.
It also helps with that "stroboscope" effect on contrasty lines when you pan and reduces this kinda of stuttering which is still present on 1/50 shutter.

theBilalFakhouri

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2019, 08:17:33 PM »
Finally :D
700D 1.1.5 | no more ISOless LV err 8

scrax

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2019, 10:00:19 PM »
If I try on 600D can't set shutter to 1/45 only 1/42 or 1/50, but by using 1/42 and in fine tuning -3.22 i got 1/47,908
and with 1/50 and Fine tuning +0,85 i got 1/47,995

Just for reporting my results
I'm using ML2.3 for photography with:
EOS 600DML | EOS 400Dplus | EOS 5D MLbeta5- EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro  - EF-S 17-85mm f4-5.6 IS USM - EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM - 580EXII - OsX, PS, LR, RawTherapee, LightZone -no video experience-

2blackbar

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2019, 10:48:47 PM »
Great ! this could be sticky info in FAQ cause a lot of guys would like to get proper 48 shutter with magic lantern , i found goind from lower to higher is better and helps with stuttering, you can pan with camera and it blurs the image nicer than 50 which producer smoother footage.
Im on canon M so other cams might vary.

Levas

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2019, 11:22:11 PM »
Sorry, couldn’t resist to post this link in this topic :P
https://youtu.be/8ThDAmTm5Ws

I know the 180 degrees shutter rule and use it too, but if the number is nearby I’m happy.
In low light I don’t hesitate to use 360 degree shutter value.
But do these tiny difference mentioned here really make a difference ?
Can only imagine that it makes a difference whith artificial light on main power supply at 50/60 Hz.
But with natural outdoor light, is there really a difference visible

2blackbar

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2019, 12:41:08 AM »
I dont know if you know that but pro editor can tell the shutter speed footage was shot with when looking at it, yes it does make a difference, if someone cant tell the difference then its like someone wants to talk about colours with blind person.
This guy in youtube vid doesnt even have film camera to prove his whatever point, 24fps is from film cams, he can even prove that 1/100 shutter is the best but movies will still be made with180degree shutter, no one cares about his personal opinion.
I personally hate footage with shutter below 40
Also film camera model made a difference , arri cameras footage looked different than panavision footage.They both were 23.976 180degree shutter.

scrax

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2019, 12:48:41 AM »
Sorry, couldn’t resist to post this link in this topic :P
https://youtu.be/8ThDAmTm5Ws

I know the 180 degrees shutter rule and use it too, but if the number is nearby I’m happy.
In low light I don’t hesitate to use 360 degree shutter value.
But do these tiny difference mentioned here really make a difference ?
Can only imagine that it makes a difference whith artificial light on main power supply at 50/60 Hz.
But with natural outdoor light, is there really a difference visible
Video is funny but I saw differences  ;D
I'm using ML2.3 for photography with:
EOS 600DML | EOS 400Dplus | EOS 5D MLbeta5- EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro  - EF-S 17-85mm f4-5.6 IS USM - EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM - 580EXII - OsX, PS, LR, RawTherapee, LightZone -no video experience-

2blackbar

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Luther

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2019, 04:44:23 AM »
But with natural outdoor light, is there really a difference visible

Maybe not on Canon cameras, because it doesn't have precise speed. But I for one can tell the difference in motion blur when I see other value than 180 degree. I think it's more of a convention and people have adapted to the "cinematic feel" of 24fps/180degree. Not because it is intrinsically "cinematic", but because industry always used this settings. When shutter speed changes people notice something is different (see Salience bias and Latent inhibition).

If I try on 600D can't set shutter to 1/45 only 1/42 or 1/50, but by using 1/42 and in fine tuning -3.22 i got 1/47,908
and with 1/50 and Fine tuning +0,85 i got 1/47,995

Just for reporting my results

More precise version (got these timer numbers using g3gg0's EOSTimerGen):
- Enable FPS override
- Select 24.000, optimized for "Exact FPS"
- Change FPS timer A to 600 and FPS timer B to 2000
- Fine-tuning to +0.17ms

This gives 1/47.999 shutter speed on 600D.

Levas

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2019, 11:54:17 AM »
I agree that 180 degree looks the most natural and use it for that reason too.
Hate to watch people walking at 1/200th shutter time.
The youtube video link I posted, it's just so funny :D

It's more like, how small difference in 180 degree rule are visible to most humans.
I think, that I can't tell the difference between the range 1/40th and 1/60th (The range is probably even bigger for me  :P ). It all looks like 180 degree shutter to me.
But like you said, a pro can probably tell.

The youtube video of 24fps vs 60 fps is a whole different topic, but THAT I do notice and I hate it in movies and series.
Don't get me started on settings like motion plus and fluid motion and other 200Hz-400Hz-800Hz frame/field rate shit on modern TV's  :'(
I can't watch that, it's too weird  :P

One thing that puzzles me is how the 180 degree rule purist work around with NTSC 60hz and 24 fps and 180 degree rule.
Real film is 24 fps, so 1/48th
But for historical reasons, 24 fps on digital is 23.976 fps.
I know it, has to do with tube televisions and fields and frames in 60Hz, so I know why it exists.
But nowadays with all the LCD screens and most viewed on computer, smartphone or smart LCD TV's, there is no reason for 23.976 fps right ?

What do the purist use nowadays, 24.000 fps or 23.976 fps ?




2blackbar

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2019, 12:22:35 PM »
Imo it would be a hassle to use 24 and then convert to 23.976 wth long takes, sound would go offsync.So its easier just start with 23.976

scrax

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2019, 04:49:41 PM »

More precise version (got these timer numbers using g3gg0's EOSTimerGen):
- Enable FPS override
- Select 24.000, optimized for "Exact FPS"
- Change FPS timer A to 600 and FPS timer B to 2000
- Fine-tuning to +0.17ms

This gives 1/47.999 shutter speed on 600D.
From 1/45 shutter just tried and got 1/44.659 (+9 units) with +0,17 in fine tuning and fps as you suggested.
to get something around 1/48 I have to set finetuning to -1,23 (-65 units) to have 1/47,999

So if understood right:
with fps 24 is better 1/48
with fps 23,976 is better 1/47,952
is this correct?

If that's the case on 600D for 23,976 fps (got them in fps override with: timer A 616, timer B 1950 ) I have to set -1,51 and result is 1/47,941

to sum up:
24fps23,976fps
timerA:600616
timerB:20001950
finetuning:-1,23-1,51
RESULTS:1/47,9991/47,941
I'm using ML2.3 for photography with:
EOS 600DML | EOS 400Dplus | EOS 5D MLbeta5- EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro  - EF-S 17-85mm f4-5.6 IS USM - EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM - 580EXII - OsX, PS, LR, RawTherapee, LightZone -no video experience-

2blackbar

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2019, 09:26:17 PM »
Ok , i dont want to come out like a heretic retard but...
Today i discovered something about the shutter in canon eos M , maybe that works with other ones i dont know so...
I gave it shutter 41 or so, the one below 45 but bigger than 33 and i recorded something... this is it ! This is how footage should look like when shot with 48 shuitter, there is no tearing and people movements blur nicely, maybe its tiny tiny bit too much so from 41 id change it to 42 but i will definitely leave it as my ideal shutter for my canon.
I know its dumb but... rolling shutter has its own clock and photo shutter has its own as well, we know that CMOS isnt that fast so i was wonderin why the hell with 48 shutter it still tears the screen on contrasty lines when you pan too quick, loweriung shutter speed solv[es this and makes it look like actual 180 degree should, where movement and blur is spot on, you can pan while handheld and its still good, doing that with 50 shutter is not a good idea but with 41 or 45 is A LOT better.
So try it out guys, it still looks great and does not look like that ugly low shutter mud i remember from watching probably 30fps videos and 33 shutter speed.
I so regret not trying lower shutters speed before, i feel like and idiot and for 9 years (its when ifirst got canon DSLR with video) i did not bother to even try.
It sounds like some heretic crap but canon numbers under shutter speed arent really give us proper motion blur, maybe they give correct phase to adjust it  to wavy pattern under fluorescent light of 50 and 60hz , but remember rolling shutter lags .
So just give it a try, i did  and its gonna stay at 42-45 cause from what i see this is where 180degree is on canon eos m and 50 shutter speed thast displayed in canon menu looks more like 80 IMO when looking at stroby/stuttring footage when you pan.
I would not be surprised if there is some explanation of this, like taking into consideration 50hz and 60hz clock + canons way to overcome rolling shutter problem while letting people to adjust to 50 or 60hz lights.

a1ex

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2019, 09:29:34 PM »
Proof, please, with full details on how to reproduce the experiment.

2blackbar

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2019, 09:59:55 PM »
Ill do some comparison shots in a couple of days, i have currently 50 files raw rendering but will get back here.
In theory do You think thats possible ? We know rolling shutter delays image physically so it introduces bizarre images like when propellers spin.
So canon has to deal with 50hz and 60hz lights on top of rolling shutter delay.
Ive seen gazillion movies and they pan crapload of ttimes and blur is still dealing nicely with pans blurring everything so it still appears to not have stutter like we have in shutter 50 on canon cams.
41-45 shutter on canon looks just much more pleasing to me than 50 and resembles 180degree film camera blur more than canons 50 and 48.
And the way it affects handheld footage is great , you no longer see these tiny jittery movements.
Also i remember seeing canons shutter tests under oscilloscope to chek if theyre right and they appear right fine but isnt it the same way how 50hz and 60hz settings work, it might be synced with 50hz giving correct readout for oscilloscope but actual physical motion blur is still not big enough to resemble 180degree.
How one can achieve sync with 50hz when obviously sensor is lagging , heres interesting list
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?303559-Measuring-rolling-shutter-put-a-number-on-this-issue!
8 minute mark

ikns

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2019, 07:29:57 AM »
Maybe not on Canon cameras, because it doesn't have precise speed. But I for one can tell the difference in motion blur when I see other value than 180 degree. I think it's more of a convention and people have adapted to the "cinematic feel" of 24fps/180degree. Not because it is intrinsically "cinematic", but because industry always used this settings. When shutter speed changes people notice something is different (see Salience bias and Latent inhibition).

More precise version (got these timer numbers using g3gg0's EOSTimerGen):
- Enable FPS override
- Select 24.000, optimized for "Exact FPS"
- Change FPS timer A to 600 and FPS timer B to 2000
- Fine-tuning to +0.17ms

This gives 1/47.999 shutter speed on 600D.

Enabling FPS override disables the audio, is that right?

scrax

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2019, 06:07:20 PM »
Enabling FPS override disables the audio, is that right?
Yes
I'm using ML2.3 for photography with:
EOS 600DML | EOS 400Dplus | EOS 5D MLbeta5- EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro  - EF-S 17-85mm f4-5.6 IS USM - EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM - 580EXII - OsX, PS, LR, RawTherapee, LightZone -no video experience-

2blackbar

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2019, 07:00:28 PM »
I compared 5dii on shutter 40 and canon eos m on shutter 40 in video modes, they look different, on 5d image is already ugly kinda like shutter 30 when its on 40, im almost 100% sure that these shutter speeds are artificial and numbers arent exactly true or rolling shutter on M and 5dii affects how footage looks like.
Well maybe not artificial but close approximations, not exactly true values.
From what i see , canon 5dii shutter 45 looks like canon EOS M shutter 40.And shutter 50 is more stuttery on canon M , on canon 5dii it looks decent.

Danne

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2019, 07:25:05 PM »
Are you viewing ml shutter readings or canon menu shutter reading? Think ml shutter is working better.
One way to confirm shutter is to check against flourouscent light. In pal mode 1/50 always gets rid of flicker on my eos m.

2blackbar

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2019, 08:02:13 PM »
I know aboyt shutter finetune on EOS M which works great , i tested it yesterday to get rid of waves from lights.
Im comparing canon values , im sensitive about shutter speeds and too long exposure looks ugly.5d looks decent till 45 and eos m till 40, theres noticeable more jitter on eos M when shutter is 50 which is why people woyuld strongly disagree with my statements about shutter speed 40 lokoking good on canon M if they have different cambody.

BlazeMagic

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Re: This is how You get 1/48 shutter in ML
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2019, 07:55:59 PM »
Thank you very much for the tutorial, and if anyone posts comparisons to see how much difference it makes, I would be very interested to see them!