Author Topic: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?  (Read 5128 times)

50mm1200s

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Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« on: May 28, 2018, 02:22:19 PM »
I've reached my saturation point today with Adobe software. I work with their products for 7 years now and they gave me nothing but headches. Missed a deadline because of bugs without fix. Is anyone willing to point me alternatives (except FinalCut, I don't work on Mac)?
I always find facinating how open source software work better than a multi-million dolar company like adobe. Not only their software are full of bugs, but also their support for the community is null. They leeched ideas from community and, besides DNG format, they gave nothing back.
Except for some crash's on Rawtherapee, open source software have almost perfect reputation from me. I heard Natron and Blender could make a good workflow, but I need to have the animation functions found on Premiere Pro, such as smooth motion curves and motion blur on objects (vector or png's). I'm also tired of Windows instability. Adobe and Microsoft is nothing but trouble for people that need stability. The only thing holding me on windows is Adobe produts (mainly Premiere and Photoshop).

Dmytro_ua

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2018, 02:33:09 PM »
DaVinci Resolve?

allemyr

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2018, 04:55:01 PM »
What types of instability do you have in Windows?

For a workflow with raw sequences Adobe isn't to good. But for other stuff I like them. Davinci Resolve 15 Studio is for me the easy winner in videoediting. But I know a lot of people are using Lightroom/AfterEffects/PremierePro to handle their raw footage which...

Tony Weller

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2018, 05:58:29 PM »
DaVinci Resolve?

+1 and it's free and chews through DNG files like nothing, free version has no de-noise or sharpening but you can use
CinemaDNG for that and is currently free also, recent update enables loading of MLV files directly

Win win
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allemyr

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2018, 09:26:43 PM »
+1 and it's free and chews through DNG files like nothing, free version has no de-noise or sharpening but you can use
CinemaDNG for that and is currently free also, recent update enables loading of MLV files directly

Win win

What's CinemaDNG? I know that a lot of people has other ML cameras then 5D3, but if you have and still expensive camera like that, go invest further with Resolve Studio :) If you have some Nvidia GPU's the noise reduction is crazy fast, and extremly good! Maybe I grade my footage to heavy and lighten up darker parts of the image to much, but I couldn't live without the Studio version of Resolve. Now its 1/3 of its original price, its 300 euro which is a bit, but very cheap for a program like that, that can improve image quality that much further! I was trying NeatVideo in Resolve Lite, ok it was some years ago but Resolve Studio was so much faster, like 10-50 times. And better :)

ArcziPL

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2018, 10:26:17 PM »
no de-noise or sharpening but you can use
CinemaDNG for that and is currently free also

Where to get a free one? I see a 2 month demo only.
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Tony Weller

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2018, 12:14:55 AM »
Where to get a free one? I see a 2 month demo only.

Yep it's in development but quite useable, there is a final estimated price and it's a lot less cost than Resolve studio for the sake of de-noise and sharpening and direct integration of MLV files including focus dot removal which Resolve does not have.

In resolve you can adjust the default softening and adjust midtone sharpness also there is a sharpen function in the RAW edits which make a useable difference if you don't want to use CinemaDNG as the interface is currently quite clunky but useable.

Also as all photography getting the right exposure at shot greatly reduces the need for de-noising ;)

Happy to show how if you like.






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megapolis

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2018, 06:33:00 AM »
Fast CinemaDNG Processor could be utilized to convert raw data from CinemaDNG or MLV to ProRes. This is very fast pipeline because it's done on NVIDIA GPU. After that transform one could utilize Adobe Premiere Pro or AE, Davinci Resolve and any other software for editing.

The latest version for Windows could be downloaded here:
www.fastcinemadng.com/download/download.html
Linux version is expected soon.

For resolutions less than 1920x1080 that software will be free, you can check licensing info at the site. Yes, at the moment this is evaluation version, final release is expected within 3-4 months. Anyway, one can use that software as CinemaDNG or MLV player for fast preview of raw footages – this is also will be free.

ArcziPL

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2018, 06:58:11 AM »
Thanks guys for all the details!

are you sure davinci resolve enable loading MLV files
It was in the context of Fast CinemaDNG.
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andy kh

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2018, 07:15:37 AM »
Thanks guys for all the details!
It was in the context of Fast CinemaDNG.

sorry my bad
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50mm1200s

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2018, 09:04:49 AM »
Guys, I'm talking about video editing ("montage"), not color grading and image processing. Unless Resolve added video editing like Premiere Pro, it's not the solution I'm looking into...
Thanks for everyone, anyway.

allemyr

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2018, 09:11:14 AM »
Guys, I'm talking about video editing ("montage"), not color grading and image processing. Unless Resolve added video editing like Premiere Pro, it's not the solution I'm looking into...
Thanks for everyone, anyway.

Yes they did ad editing several versions ago! I edit my projects in Resolve, since the XML workflow between Resolve and PremierePro seams to be broken in latest PP version.

allemyr

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2018, 09:15:30 AM »
Also as all photography getting the right exposure at shot greatly reduces the need for de-noising ;)

Ok so the program is called Fast CinemaDNG, not the same as the format. OK shure you can use it. I won't tho :)

Well, I "overexpose" my footage a bit, can't overexpose more. Without adjustments to the image it isn't noise of course, its after the grading. Thank you for reading something else.

This video would be really noise with out NR that i made.

50mm1200s

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2018, 10:32:31 AM »
Yes they did ad editing several versions ago! I edit my projects in Resolve, since the XML workflow between Resolve and PremierePro seams to be broken in latest PP version.

Wow, that's nice. I'll look into it. Thanks.

ArcziPL

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2018, 09:16:04 PM »
free version has no de-noise or sharpening but you can use
CinemaDNG for that and is currently free also, recent update enables loading of MLV files directly
Any idea why Denoise and Unsharp Mask are disabled in Fast CinemaDNG? It opens MLV by drag&drop, allows focus dots removal, white balance, curves and exposure compensation. And... that's it. "Denoise" and "Enable USM" are grayed out, I can't click them. The HELP is also not opening... It's very fast in conversion but seems to be ultra limited in features?
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megapolis

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2018, 09:31:45 PM »
To enable any set of image processing modules in Fast CinemaDNG Processor, you need to close current project and go to dialog Options (right tab) - there you can check all available image processing modules. We've done that because sometimes user doesn't have enough GPU memory to utilize all available options.

ArcziPL

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2018, 09:44:26 PM »
To enable any set of image processing modules in Fast CinemaDNG Processor, you need to close current project and go to dialog Options (right tab) - there you can check all available image processing modules. We've done that because sometimes user doesn't have enough GPU memory to utilize all available options.
...the tab "Output and extensions" was also grayed out... First time in my life I see a program, where a project has to be closed in order to access configuration settings. Usually it is the other way round. Thanks for the hint! I know it's still in development but IMO you should change it or at least properly document (bundled PDF does not describe it). I spent also a good 20 minutes to find an option to open .MLV but it doesn't exist. You have to drag&drop or use context menu in windows explorer. Usually ALL importing options are accessible from a menu. But this was at least described on your web page.
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megapolis

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2018, 10:02:31 PM »
The tab "Output and extensions" is gray if you haven't closed the project.
Full manual is expected in a week.

ArcziPL

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2018, 10:10:49 PM »
The output looks now, after enabling sharpening, really good! Great job!
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megapolis

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2018, 06:04:17 PM »

ibrahim

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2018, 12:50:15 PM »
Having been an Adobe user for years davinci 14 and15 has been the winner, however in my case in terms of picture quality I still use After Effects.
The primary reason why I returned to AE from davinci is due to the jumping (automatic zoom-in jump) I got on my cinemaDNG footage in davinci after having color corrected the raw footages. I have written a lot about this issue but unfortunately I never got help so solve it in different forums, including in the BM forum.
I compared the picture quality in AE vs davinci, I have to say that AE is the winner IF your PC is strong enough to pre-load since AE can be painful to edit. This, even though I loved the editing and color grading interface of davinci a lot.

Canon 5D Mark IIIs & Canon 600d | Ronin-M | Rokinon 35mm T1.5 Cine AS UMC | Samyang 85mm T1.5 UMC AS Cine VDSLR II   | Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM | Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II | etc
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ArcziPL

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2018, 03:32:31 PM »
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Kharak

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2018, 06:10:29 PM »
Having been an Adobe user for years davinci 14 and15 has been the winner, however in my case in terms of picture quality I still use After Effects.
The primary reason why I returned to AE from davinci is due to the jumping (automatic zoom-in jump) I got on my cinemaDNG footage in davinci after having color corrected the raw footages. I have written a lot about this issue but unfortunately I never got help so solve it in different forums, including in the BM forum.
I compared the picture quality in AE vs davinci, I have to say that AE is the winner IF your PC is strong enough to pre-load since AE can be painful to edit. This, even though I loved the editing and color grading interface of davinci a lot.

Same here, i also noticed the jump zooming on random shots and cant figure out why.

Also ACR simply has the better debayering. In some instances in Resolve the bayer pattern becomes visible if there is a lot of detail in a shot, mostly in crop_rec footage. Also in low light footage, resolve has a lot of FPN.

But resolve is 100x faster and I see myself more and more dropping AE for different projects because it litterally is 100x faster to deliver.
once you go raw you never go back

allemyr

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2018, 07:40:17 PM »
If you have a UHD/4k monitor you can watch this below.

Resolve takes time to learn maybe AdobeCameraRaw in AE is faster to learn.

I like Resolve a lot, but yes it has been taking a lot of time to learn.

Resolve 15.4 Studio Beta impresses me a lot.


Those car racing shots is 4 years old, and it is taken before I new I had to overexpose a bit, so a bit more noise in those,

Kharak

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2018, 11:25:27 PM »
I suppose you are using that Super Scale mode introduced in Resolve 15?

I haven't tried v15 yet and will not get to until 2 months from today.

But at 1:25 in your video, those hills in the background, edging from the overexposure. Could you try putting that sequence through ACR? Because, those Edge burning-artifacts is something I see a lot in Resolve. Especially Artificial light sources will burn purple/black at their sources or on or around anything obscuring the light source, generating this harsh digital burn. It personally takes me out of a story seeing those. Perhaps some masking and Colour Pickering could fix it.

On another note regarding Adobe vs Resolve, the colour engine in Resolve beats Adobe anywhere anytime, the looks and richness of the pictures coming from Resolve are so much deeper.

I basically see it being like this:

 Resolve = Perfect Colour but bad debayering, because of that its hard to ditch the digital look.

 After Effects = Okey'ish colour but the best Debayering, giving a clean filmic look.

For me its all in the details. Might not matter to others and most likely not to the end-viewer.

Thinking of getting Neat Video for Resolve, but I don't know how well it deals with bad debayering. Its incredible for NR and detail preservation.
once you go raw you never go back

allemyr

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2018, 09:52:11 AM »
I suppose you are using that Super Scale mode introduced in Resolve 15?

But at 1:25 in your video, those hills in the background, edging from the overexposure. Could you try putting that sequence through ACR? Because, those Edge burning-artifacts is something I see a lot in Resolve. Especially Artificial light sources will burn purple/black at their sources or on or around anything obscuring the light source, generating this harsh digital burn. It personally takes me out of a story seeing those. Perhaps some masking and Colour Pickering could fix it.

For me its all in the details. Might not matter to others and most likely not to the end-viewer.

Thinking of getting Neat Video for Resolve, but I don't know how well it deals with bad debayering. Its incredible for NR and detail preservation.

Hi, yes I agree on those, they are not beatiful those edges. Will check those I might be sharpening in the wrong way.

Yes its the Super Scale feature.

Skip Neat Video, not useful. Debayering is something else then noise. The debayering problem occured because of bad sharpening mostly. Will upload a short one.
And Neat Video takes ages to process an image with, really slow.

About me doing a comparision with After Effects vs Resolve, it wouldn't be fair since I don't really use Adobe Camera RAW since many years.
And those edges, becomes visible during upscale and heavy grading, which I don't know how to do in Adobe.

Will upload to youtube and post here, when I changed the sharpening






allemyr

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2018, 12:28:47 PM »
Changed my settings in the "Super Scale" rollout so here is another one.


More sharpening




Less sharpening




More sharpening




Less sharpening




Screenshots is from Youtube.




ibrahim

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2018, 06:30:59 PM »
Same here, i also noticed the jump zooming on random shots and cant figure out why.

Also ACR simply has the better debayering. In some instances in Resolve the bayer pattern becomes visible if there is a lot of detail in a shot, mostly in crop_rec footage. Also in low light footage, resolve has a lot of FPN.

But resolve is 100x faster and I see myself more and more dropping AE for different projects because it litterally is 100x faster to deliver.

True the debayering in ACR is exceptional.

Did you get the jumps while editing the cinemaDNGs or an intermediate prores version?
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allemyr

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2018, 10:22:27 PM »
Ok. Maybe a bit offensive for the community here as I know most of the people use the Adobe suite exclusivly. But I would say that debayering is equal as good in Resolve. Those all screen captures is cropped to 1:1 pixel from a video that is originally upscaled from 1080p to UHD/4k.

I think UHD/4k is superior as a end product right now, mostly because Youtube compress it less then 1080p that was one of the reasons I went with that workflow.
Could anyone guide me in what step I should to the upscale in ACR in AE? I can't change the resolution of my DNG, or should I do it in the composition settings?


masc

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2018, 10:46:54 PM »
True the debayering in ACR is exceptional.

I can't agree at all! Debayering was the reason I went away from ACR. I don't know if it works better for other cameras, but for clips from my 5D2 it was a real desaster! Resolve is way better! ACR had much more moiree artefacts and something like a (around 50x50 pixels) grid, which was invisible for static clips and which was visible for dynamic clips with much detail. I never saw that on any other software.
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mothaibaphoto

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2018, 06:31:31 AM »
Could anyone guide me in what step I should to the upscale in ACR in AE?
To be honest, AE, (not ACR), has "Detail preserving upscale" for a long time.
And on topic:
No, Adobe is not a garbage they are very mature and feature reach set of tools,
but too hungry for money and ACR is painfully slow with RAW.
And Resolve is on pair in quality with RAW since v12 but chews it in realtime on good GPU.
And the core functionality is Free!!!
Yes, and Adobe development is completely stalled, while Resolve evolves rapidly.
Literally, every time i read description for the new Adobe release, i only yawn.
On the opposite, for example, as long as i start to include VFX in my projects, BM added Fusion functionality.
Simply incredible.

Kharak

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2018, 11:17:58 AM »
Did you get the jumps while editing the cinemaDNGs or an intermediate prores version?

When I edit cinema/DNG's it will randomly crop in on certain shots. I thought it had something to do with the mixture of the source footage, like I've been having 3.5k, crop_rec 60p, 16:9, 3:2 on the same timeline. But why it punches in in the middle of the shots I dont understand.

@allemyr

There is quite the difference between the debayering. Esecially crop_rec footage, like 3.5k and other higher resolutions.

I was exclusively using After Effects for outputting intermediate Cineform files which I then graded in Resolve. And there is no question about it ACR via after effects does not produce any of the artifacts Resolve does, also ACR suppresses FPN on a whole other level.

For upscaling in AE, I think the best way is to make the composition the size you want, transform 'Fit to frame Width' click bicubic scaling on your footage in the Comp "Timeline", its better than applying the effect 'detail preserving uscale' because some plugins will look past that effect and its harder to make precise upscaling with the Detail preserving effect aswell.

In my opinion, Adobe sat on the throne for too long. Building on ancient source codes for their software and then had the balls to switch to a subscription... Also for me it personally was infuriating, after spending 3000$ on the production suite for them to annouce 2 months later the subscription payment and In return I got 1 year half price on the subscription... Like what the fuck... But I still continued using it because I had to and Adobe knows that, like thousands of others that have made adobe part of their workflow, Adobe gets to suck money every month. "But in return you get the newest versions".. What is really NEW since 2012? Lumetri, with its abysmal colours and hightlight clipping? Adobe's ridiculous support.. Try contacting them about anything and enjoy a lenghty conversation with Rajesh, Shiva and Rajjal (no offence to Indians), but being reconnected with so many people copy+pasting the same "solutions" which you spend 2 hours explaining is not the issue.. Naah fuck Adobe, thats when I quit my subsciption. Adobe is garbage and luckily Resolve came to the rescue. Since I quit that cloud of dump, the Sun shines brighter every day, the birds sing louder and I am happier not supporting that corporation.

Sorry for the rant.
once you go raw you never go back

allemyr

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2018, 06:55:06 PM »
@allemyr

I was exclusively using After Effects for outputting intermediate Cineform files which I then graded in Resolve. And there is no question about it ACR via after effects does not produce any of the artifacts Resolve does, also ACR suppresses FPN on a whole other level.

Well I agree on my first upload that the edges in strong light doesn't look good. I went with other settings on post #26, and am very satisfied with that quality of the image. Fixed pattern noise is something that comes from the camera sensor it can be denoised. Shure you can see it on the last shot on the video but that shot is 4 years old and maybe underexposed 2.5 stops.

With the second upload I'am very happy with the quality especially when viewed on a 4k display. Maybe we have different preferences, but I find that quality good. And I haven't seen much good footage from these ML cameras lately everything is extremly compressed with artifacts on different vimeo and youtube uploads that I've found from others.

The only thing desturbing me now is that I'am not shure if my EF 100 IS lens has an image stabilizer that works correctly, it's quite shaky footage.

I was trying ACR in AE, but didn't get it to work without too much effort, for me it really doesn't matter anyways since I found my workflow with Resolve and I like the quality that comes out now :)

Kharak

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2018, 07:35:24 PM »
I am not trying to persuade anyone either way. I am stating my experience with both. Resolve is awesome, it just doesn't debayer at the same quality as ACR. But I have not tried v15 and super scale, maybe there is some new magic there.

Regarding FPN, yes it comes from the sensor and again, ACR's Debayering simply handles it better. I am not talking about noise reduction or sharpening in ACR, they should all be set to Zero.
once you go raw you never go back

qqqavi

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2018, 08:53:41 PM »
+1 and it's free and chews through DNG files like nothing, free version has no de-noise or sharpening but you can use
CinemaDNG for that and is currently free also, recent update enables loading of MLV files directly

Win win

You're saying that Resolve is now accepting mlv directly?


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allemyr

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2018, 08:37:54 PM »
You're saying that Resolve is now accepting mlv directly?


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

I'am pretty shure they talk about another application, i think its called ... can't remember the name, but its not resolve.

Why would it change things if Davinci Reoslve could read MLV files? Not really a problem at all to convert from MLV to CDNG with sound that is easily synced automatically. That raw2cdng i use 1.6.1 is crazy fast and process a 1 minute clip in under 10 seconds.

No this isn't a issue to be solve, it so easy, almost the same as or exctly the same as moving MLV files from memory card to folder on your computer.

ibrahim

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2019, 12:57:57 AM »
To be honest, AE, (not ACR), has "Detail preserving upscale" for a long time.
And on topic:
No, Adobe is not a garbage they are very mature and feature reach set of tools,
but too hungry for money and ACR is painfully slow with RAW.
And Resolve is on pair in quality with RAW since v12 but chews it in realtime on good GPU.
And the core functionality is Free!!!
Yes, and Adobe development is completely stalled, while Resolve evolves rapidly.
Literally, every time i read description for the new Adobe release, i only yawn.
On the opposite, for example, as long as i start to include VFX in my projects, BM added Fusion functionality.
Simply incredible.


No doubt about the fact that resolve is faster and its VFX has evolves quickly especially with a strong GPU. But if image quality is your concern AE beats resolve. I've tested both in many footages and the difference is noticeable.

Yes AE is slow since it is RAM-hungry. But AE can be used in a smarter way. I've used it for a several years now and for the past 8 months or so mastered a perfect workflow due to how RAM-hungry the software is.

Import the cDNG inside AE via ACR. Then drag and drop the footage into composition. Select the cDNG file and select create proxy video. In the export settings choose quicktime cineform (quality 3) and half the resolution or even lower depending on your system. This will create proxies which will easy load for playbacks and it is very fast. No intermediate conversion/render is required; straight cDNG 14-bit uncompressed into AE.

Do the editing with the proxy on. Then when you want to color grade uncheck the box to inactive the proxy to see in max quality while color correcting/grading. At the end uncheck the box besides each cDNG file to inactive the proxy, select CAPS LOCK (to speed up the rendering) and render to cineform, prores or DNxHD depending if you're in mac/PC.
 
If this method is now fast for playback then the SSD configuration, RAM or something else should be better structered.
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mothaibaphoto

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2019, 01:45:18 AM »
Do the editing with the proxy on. Then when you want to color grade...
Sorry, but according to wikipedia:
"Adobe After Effects is a digital visual effects, motion graphics, and compositing application ...
can be used for keying, tracking, compositing and animation."
No words about "editing" or "color grade".

Ilia3101

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Re: Adobe is garbage. Alternatives?
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2019, 02:01:50 AM »
It can do either if you want.
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