Author Topic: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.  (Read 6316 times)

budafilms

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Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« on: January 09, 2017, 09:17:57 AM »
My question was response for 14 bits long time ago.

- Apple ProRes 4444 XQ: supports up to 12 bits per image channel and up to 16 bits for the alpha channel.  4:4:4 sources. 500 Mbps (29,97 fps)

- For 12 Bits, the best appear to be the same codec and 4444 (no XQ).

- For 10 Bits, Apple ProRes 422 HQ, This codec supports full-width, 4:2:2 video sources at 10-bit pixel depths at 220 MB/s BUT
Apple ProRes 422, is nearly the same as before with 66% of data rate, 147 MB/s at 29,97 (less in 25P).

Someone knows if Prores 422 it's enough or not ? I'm confuse with 422, or 444 RAW footage from Canon ML. I suppose using more than we need, is more space  to manage without gain anything.


Source Apple Pro Res: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202410




nikfreak

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2017, 11:47:55 AM »
Interested in this topic, too. Played with a hackintosh recently and if 422 is ok that sounds good but I would also additionally ask which codec you guys recommend on a windows pc when using 10bit raw recording w/o "using more than we need".

using more than we need, is more space  to manage without gain anything...
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MAG

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2017, 01:08:56 PM »
Almost every computer screen is 8bit ! So if you don't have a good monitor, you will truly never see what you did shot.
And when you will upload your video into Vimeo or YouTube your video will be again compressed into 8bit 4.1.0.

Just some coloriste or photographe use a monitor 10, 12 bit :
- Cinema screen can diffuse your video in 12bit
- Photographie can be retoutch more precisely with big monitor before print

In fact, when we talk about codec for web broadcast, codec is only use to push the post prod further in terme of color.

I shot in 10bit and 14bit raw with magiclantern and It's same in terme of post-production for web broadcast. That's why 10bit raw is so huge to be discovered by the team because 10bit less data so more size and more image/s !

If you want to keep your data for web Prores 8 or 10bit 422 is very enought if you want to apply simple lut or doing basic color correction.

The only question is what do you want to do ? Where do you will spread your video ?

If you make a video for cinema screen, buy a lot of data to keep the dng file and shoot in 12 or 14bit raw.
Or if you make a video for TV or Web 10bit raw is the best codec to post-prod. And I recommend to keep dng 10bit raw file with proxy jpeg.

Kharak

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2017, 01:24:31 PM »
For PC, if you are shooting 10/12 bit, for transcoding I recommend Cineform 10 bit YUV.

If you are shooting 14 bit, and you want to retain highest quality for your Masters, use Cineform RAW 12 bit. Set Quality to Film 1. Film 2 is just overkill, as stated by GoPro themselves.

This has proven to me to be the best way of retaining the Quality, so that what I colour grade comes out looking exactly the same.

I like prores, but somehow to me its as if the pixels are "smeared" together on prores, maybe because i am on pc and not using apple engine for rendering, maybe its just something i think i see
once you go raw you never go back

MAG

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2017, 02:03:54 PM »
For PC, if you are shooting 10/12 bit, for transcoding I recommend Cineform 10 bit YUV.


Some blockbuster has been shoot in Cineform raw ! Strong and lightweight codec

reddeercity

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2017, 03:08:38 AM »
@ budafilms remember whether it's 10, 12, 14bit raw it all linear no color space (444,rgb,etc...)
until you normalize it , e.g. full range rgb , rec709 , etc.. .
You should keep with ProRes 4444XQ , The reason why (short answer)
ProRes4444 , 422HQ , 422 ,422LT are all non liner codec with limited color space (rec709 , 16-235 ,clipping channel's)
mainly for broadcast SD/HD Cams . Where as ProRes 4444XQ is not limited in Dynamic range  Full  Range (0-255) linear (no clipping)
Read the Apple_ProRes_White_Paper.pdf it explains it all.

al
And when you will upload your video into Vimeo or YouTube your video will be again compressed into 8bit 4.1.0.
What are you taking about  ???
4.1.0 ?
The standard for HD & 4K is 4.2.0(web) & SD-DV  4.1.1 (but SD can also be 4.2.0 , 4.4.4 )
4.2.0 color space is the standard for all web video streaming site .
I host my own web video streaming server , from SD 360p to 1080p & UHD/4K (I just compress 4K differently , Band width pig)
I just upload my prores 4444 file after I edited , so recompression is not a issue on YouTube
You know the old statement about data ,"Garbage in - Garbage out"
so the highest quality garbage you can upload (least compressed) give you better garbage out (compressed Vimeo/YouTube streaming file)

budafilms

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2017, 04:55:12 AM »
@reddeercity

Thanks, good answer!

My new question is after work with everything in 4444 XQ, you have to compress because it's imposible manage that size for distribution- except a short commercial. That compression to Pro Res LT, or H264 - in my case, independent movie festivals - is not reducing that quality? So, it's not better work with something aproximately, near to the final projection?

At the moment, I always work into resolve with DNG. But I had always problems and hours into the Resolve Forum. My last movie I exported everything to pro res and I made the final into Final Cut X, smoothly without problems.

Deadcode

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2017, 09:27:43 AM »
I was curious about the requirement of the ProRes 4444, so i did some test with properly exposed 5D Raw. I post processed it in Davinci Resolve, BMDFILM, proper WB, Highlight recovery On, then exported it to Prores 4444 and ProRes LT. After that i graded it in FCPX, and even with the hardest push i was unable to see any difference between the two files.

Probably im not sensitive enough, because all of the professionals recommends higher bitrate ProRes codecs. Can you show me some footage or screengrabs where i can spot the difference? (of course from post processed 5D RAW, i can understand recording in compressed format with Blackmagic cameras for example there IS a difference)

MAG

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2017, 10:58:07 AM »
@ budafilms remember whether it's 10, 12, 14bit raw it all linear no color space (444,rgb,etc...)
until you normalize it , e.g. full range rgb , rec709 , etc.. .
You should keep with ProRes 4444XQ , The reason why (short answer)
ProRes4444 , 422HQ , 422 ,422LT are all non liner codec with limited color space (rec709 , 16-235 ,clipping channel's)
mainly for broadcast SD/HD Cams . Where as ProRes 4444XQ is not limited in Dynamic range  Full  Range (0-255) linear (no clipping)
Read the Apple_ProRes_White_Paper.pdf it explains it all.

Off course, but Prores444XQ is he small enought compared to dng 10 or 12bit?
Also, you can choose your color space in efter effect, it is a good point.

I have ever seen people who work in industrie and make video as passion who say 422 is enought.
I'm not saying that 422 is better than 444 but he could be enought in many video project. Depend of what you want to do !
If you need to shoot a big project like documentary or report 422 will be nice.

What are you taking about  ???
4.1.0 ?
The standard for HD & 4K is 4.2.0(web) & SD-DV  4.1.1 (but SD can also be 4.2.0 , 4.4.4 )
4.2.0 color space is the standard for all web video streaming site .
I host my own web video streaming server , from SD 360p to 1080p & UHD/4K (I just compress 4K differently , Band width pig)
I just upload my prores 4444 file after I edited , so recompression is not a issue on YouTube
You know the old statement about data ,"Garbage in - Garbage out"
so the highest quality garbage you can upload (least compressed) give you better garbage out (compressed Vimeo/YouTube streaming file)

Sorry, I was talking about about web standard ! 4.2.0

Garbage in - Barbage out is true but not 100%
My point of view is :
If you export proress 422 proress 444 H264 high bitrate or dnxhd, I'm not sure the upload will have "real" better quality.

In all case, allways depend of your video.
Exemple :
Video with fast movment or grain will request more data to be upload in good quality but "Simple" video less.

@reddeercity
Technically , I totaly agree with you 100%
I'm only adding the context ! ;)

maxotics

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2017, 02:17:25 PM »
I've been looking for a variation for this answer for 5 years and still I remain baffled.  My 2-cents of where I'm at.

90% of the benefit of shooting RAW happens in the first transcoding.  That is, when I set my exposure, whites, blacks, contrast, basic color and export to H.264 4:2:2 say, I can see little different in ProRes444 if I exported to that later in image processing.  Full disclosure, I'm not big into color grading, and it shows  :'(  Therefore, my goal switches from image quality to NLE efficiency.  If I use lossless, the computer hardware seems to struggle, if I use highly compressed (like MTS), the software seems to struggle.  So I'm always looking for the best compromise between the two.

For now, it seems H.264 is a good compromise (seems all the manufacturers focus on it).  Though I'm going to do more with DNxHD next.

Again, my approach, don't worry about CODEC for image quality, just worry about getting the conversion as close to the look I want.  Do worry about the CODEC in how nicely it will play in the NLE.  ProRes 444 seems high-maintenance in that regard.

zachnfine

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2018, 10:39:45 PM »
Just figured I'd pass this new Apple white paper on the new Prores RAW codecs along:

https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/docs/Apple_ProRes_RAW_White_Paper.pdf




Lars Steenhoff

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2018, 10:32:49 AM »
I hope someone will make a tool for converting cinema dng to pro res raw
or even better mlv to prores raw

Lars Steenhoff

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2018, 11:17:54 AM »
https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/04/06/prores-raw-is-here/

some discussion here, seems there are some limitations.

dfort

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2018, 08:46:53 PM »
Seems like this will be one of the big announcement when NAB starts tomorrow. So far only the Atomos Shogun Inferno and Sumo 19 can record it and you need a camera that will output 10 or 12bit raw out of the SDI port. However, DJI announced support for the Zenmuse X7 Camera.

What does this mean for Magic Lantern? It depends whether or not it will be supported by open source projects like AVFoundation or ffmpeg and then it might be possible to convert MLV to ProRes RAW. How about recording directly to ProRes RAW in camera? Maybe, we'll have to wait and see.

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reddeercity

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Re: Best Apple Pro Res for 10, 12 bits RAW.
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2018, 08:31:32 AM »
Currently only fully supported in new FCPX 10.4.1 and Atomos Shogun Inferno and Sumo 19 recorder (as per what dfort posted) with a free firm ware upgrade
camera supported at the moment are
Quote
Canon C300 Mark II
 Canon C500
 Sony FS700
 Sony FS5
 Sony FS7/FS7 II
 Panasonic Varicam LT
 Panasonic EVA1
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/04/final-cut-pro-x-update-introduces-prores-raw-and-advanced-closed-captioning/

I can't any info on support for Compressor but Motion supports it , not sure if it can be encoded on apple apps , I need to upgrade to macOS High Sierra  and see if it can be hack like prores 4444XQ was for A.E.
Quote
Motion 5.4.1 and ProRes RAW enable motion graphics artists to take full advantage of RAW image quality with superb performance and flexibility when designing graphics and effects.
http://alex4d.com/notes/item/final-cut-pro-10-4-1-prores-raw-and-captions
some info on the new fcpx updates , go figure it's the NAB next week is apple trying to make a statement about pro video raw workflow ?
I do like the new Grading in fcpx , no more 3th partly grading plugin and say Good Bye to Blackmagic Resolve  :))