MLV App 1.8 - All in one MLV Video Post Processing App [Windows, Mac and Linux]

[Ilia3101]

Have you asked @Andy600 for some help with this?

I know the cinelog website has xy cooridnates of the RGB primaries, and a few values on the log curve, but I am not sure how to get a matrix or curve function from that info. @Andy600 if you could inform me about the curve and matrix from XYZ I would appreciate it! (or tell me how to do it from info on the website ).

Edit: I am an idiot, I just looked on the page and it literally says "It is a hybrid of Alexa Wide Gamut RGB primaries (D65 white) and Cineon Log transfer"

[bouncyball]

@DeafEyeJedi

If so, mind if I ask how exactly did you do DF avg for this?

Sure.

1. Load M26-2323.MLV source clip into mlvapp then go to export settings and select Codec "MLV" with option (lower dropbox) "Averaged Frame". Export result somewhere (with changed name. E.g M26-2323_DF.MLV or something). Just temporarily Import this averaged MLV as a _regular_ clip to check whether it crashes app or not.
2. Use this averaged MLV as a dark frame in RAW Correction "Darkframe Subtraction" section (load it with yellow folder button).

One more thing. Could you share your already averaged MLV. I mean made by switch (hence w/mlv_dump) which crashes mlvapp?

That's all
bb

[ibrahim]

Hi, to process dual ISO footage what should the camera matrix be set at?
I use 5d3.

[masc]

Hi, to process dual ISO footage what should the camera matrix be set at?
I use 5d3.

There is no "should". Do it in a way it looks good for you
Camera Matrix is a color calibration. At temperatures >4000K it is mostly better to check it. Below ~4000K we have some problems with it and you may get some strange colors here and there, so uncheck it.

[Ilia3101]

Just keep it on as it gives correct colours, but disable if it causes problems.

[ibrahim]

@Ibrahim
Just hit export dng, lossless, uncompressed, whatever. If the dng files looks ok you don´t need to mess with settings. Defaults are ok. ACR and resolve can chew all bits.

Thanks Ilia3101, masc and bouncyball for great progress and refienments. Dualiso, colors etc. High end stuff.

After processing my dual iso/raw footage to arri log-c cDNG uncompressed I intend to import them AE. During the import ACR will be used. Which leads to the question, how much more accurate is MLVapp than ACR? Or rather what's destructive with ACR?

Will any destruction also occur with resolve?

[togg]

came back to work 

1) On the gradiation curves would it be possible to have the right click assigned to delete a point? It is a standard feature on most of the curves I've seen in different apps.

2) Would it be possible to have the same option for naming scheme that we have on the dng export with the ProRes export? Particularly usefull for a number of reasons. On my case I had done the proxy with Resolve but since now the colours looks very good out right out of the MLV App I would like to do the master from it, and replace them for my NLE.

Proxy file has this name (dng-resolve-nle) : M12-1211_1_2017-06-12_0001_C0000

ProRes export can only have this name : M12-1211

[togg]

I did a fast colour comparison:


In order : tonemapped MLV App, Rec709 gamma Resolve, Srgb gamma Resolve, Srgb gamma Resolve fast correction.
I feel like I can bring srgb close to the tonemapped but I kind of loose skintones. Of course the tonemapped logic has a kind of backed filmic gamma into it but usually it is what I'm looking for and anyway it is usefull to have it from start, since canon magic lantern's camera don't have that much dinamic range it helps to create a pleasing image immage even if you underexposed a little.

[Ilia3101]

I will have to explain mlv app profiles. Coming in ~1 hour

[masc]

1) On the gradiation curves would it be possible to have the right click assigned to delete a point? It is a standard feature on most of the curves I've seen in different apps.

2) Would it be possible to have the same option for naming scheme that we have on the dng export with the ProRes export? Particularly usefull for a number of reasons. On my case I had done the proxy with Resolve but since now the colours looks very good out right out of the MLV App I would like to do the master from it, and replace them for my NLE.

1) use double click as with all other parameters in the app
2) I have to think about how to do that, but sounds not impossible

[togg]

1) use double click as with all other parameters in the app
2) I have to think about how to do that, but sounds not impossible

1) got it!
2) OK, thanks In the meantime I'll probably use NameChanger, a very usefull software in case you don't know it.

[Ilia3101]

After processing my dual iso/raw footage to arri log-c cDNG uncompressed I intend to import them AE.

When you export to DNG no processing is applied as DNG is for bayer raw data, only thing MLV App can do to DNG is raw corrections like stripe removal.

During the import ACR will be used. Which leads to the question, how much more accurate is MLVapp than ACR?

For processing raw video, they MLV App and ACR should both be colour accurate. Adobe can obviously do more as it has more money so obviously ACR is gonna be better in a lot of ways.

Or rather what's destructive with ACR?

Will any destruction also occur with resolve?

I don't know exactly what you mean by destructive here.

[Ilia3101]

Now the processing profile explanation. They are currently a bit confusing and not consistent in terms of what type of thing they are. It really should be separated in to processing profile and output colour space.

But here's an explanation of what they currently are:

Standard - allows any creative processing to be done (contrast, saturation, curves and stuff like that), output in rec.709 colour space.
Tonemapped - Same as standard but applies a tonemapping curve so that highlights never ever clip (this limited by the camera unfortunately) - also output in rec709 space
sRGB - Does not allow any creative processing to be done (contrast, saturation, curves...), only exposure (linear) and white balance (white point adaptation) so the end result is a perfectly accurate output in the sRGB colour space
rec709 - same as sRGB, perfectly accurate, but this time the output is in rec709 colour space (basically the same thing)
linear - uses rec709/sRGB gamut, but no gamma curve. Not sure what the use is but I think @escho uses it. (?)
log profiles - Exact output, no creative processing, same as the previous two, except the output is in a log colour space which does allow processing

sRGB and rec709 are not very useful imo as they neither retain information for further grading like log does, nor does the image look nice because they lack a tonemapping curve.

This whole system will be reworked and more logical soon along with some very good improvements. I really want to get it done but I am busy in January sadly

Also @masc I noticed an issue, the curves and clarity adjustment do not get disabled in log and srgb/rec709 profiles which they should.

[escho]

linear - uses rec709/sRGB gamut, but no gamma curve. Not sure what the use is but I think @escho uses it. (?)

Yes, I used it. But I managed to get nice results with standard easier. So, if nobody needs linear, it can be removed

[Ilia3101]

Yes, I used it. But I managed to get nice results with standard easier. So, if nobody needs linear, it can be removed

Even though it's not useful now, the capability will be kept. After the processing improvements that are coming, linear output will be required if we want things like ACES support or HDR.

I did a fast colour comparison:


In order : tonemapped MLV App, Rec709 gamma Resolve, Srgb gamma Resolve, Srgb gamma Resolve fast correction.

Oh lol I originally misread that - I thought you said MLV App rec709 and MLV App sRGB profiles. That is what lead me to explain the profiles. Oh well hopefully it's useful for some people.

@togg Actually would be interesting if you compared MLV App's sRGB and rec709 profiles to Davinci's.

[togg]

Now the processing profile explanation. They are currently a bit confusing and not consistent in terms of what type of thing they are. It really should be separated in to processing profile and output colour space.

But here's an explanation of what they currently are:

Standard - allows any creative processing to be done (contrast, saturation, curves and stuff like that), output in rec.709 colour space.
Tonemapped - Same as standard but applies a tonemapping curve so that highlights never ever clip (this limited by the camera unfortunately) - also output in rec709 space
sRGB - Does not allow any creative processing to be done (contrast, saturation, curves...), only exposure (linear) and white balance (white point adaptation) so the end result is a perfectly accurate output in the sRGB colour space
rec709 - same as sRGB, perfectly accurate, but this time the output is in rec709 colour space (basically the same thing)
linear - uses rec709/sRGB gamut, but no gamma curve. Not sure what the use is but I think @escho uses it. (?)
log profiles - Exact output, no creative processing, same as the previous two, except the output is in a log colour space which does allow processing

sRGB and rec709 are not very useful imo as they neither retain information for further grading like log does, nor does the image look nice because they lack a tonemapping curve.

This whole system will be reworked and more logical soon along with some very good improvements. I really want to get it done but I am busy in January sadly

Also @masc I noticed an issue, the curves and clarity adjustment do not get disabled in log and srgb/rec709 profiles which they should.

mmm, I'd be curious to know what kind of tonemapping the standard/tonemapping/film mode are doing VS rec709/srgb. The results are so differents than I'm kinf of scary to commit my workflow to those ProRes files.

[togg]

@togg Actually would be interesting if you compared MLV App's sRGB and rec709 profiles to Davinci's.

will do! Thing is they'll probably differ because gamma is a huge mess, rec709 doesn't even define it.

[Ilia3101]

will do! Thing is they'll probably differ because gamma is a huge mess, rec709 doesn't even define it.

Thank you for testing.

Also what do you mean it doesn't define gamma? I didn't create the Rec709 profile, but isn't this the gamma function: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._709#Transfer_characteristics (well "transfer function")

[Ilia3101]

mmm, I'd be curious to know what kind of tonemapping the standard/tonemapping/film mode are doing VS rec709/srgb. The results are so differents than I'm kinf of scary to commit my workflow to those ProRes files.

Ah, I did forget to mention, the standard/tonemapped/film use an extra curve that lightens the image as it looked far better than without it.

This is how the processing you are interested in works:
1. linear image (infinite range of values, with help from clever int16 tricks)
2. tonemapping function to roll clipped values off to 1.0 smoothly ("film" tonemapping function and "tonemapped" tonemapping function, standard/rec709/sRGB do not do this stage, therefore has harsh clipping)
3. lighten curve (same in one tonemapped, standard, film)
4. final colour space conversion (where gamma happens)

In rec.709 and sRGB, creative adjustments are disabled and there is no step 2 and 3, which gives the closest to exact sRGB/rec709 colour values but that it no real use for creativity/film making, and neither is it any use for measuring colours as a camera sensor is just not that accurate. Same applies to the log profiles, although they do not have fully correct colour spaces yet.

The order of this will stay the same once the big upgrade has been done, but the individual stages should be more customisable. It does look completely different in code and hopefully that will be clearer as well (right now some of these stages are combined in some ways for both speed and because they were not initially planned).

[togg]

Thank you for testing.

Also what do you mean it doesn't define gamma? I didn't create the Rec709 profile, but isn't this the gamma function: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._709#Transfer_characteristics (well "transfer function")

oh yes yes, you're right, it's the display gamma that isn't specified. I also got confused because now even in davinci you can decouple the colour space from the encoding gamma.

[togg]

I'm having another nasty bug on a batch export of around 400gb (MLV compression).

"Could not read VIDF image data from:  /Volumes/DNG/etc etc/RAW/M30-1357.MLV"

It stopped the export completelly, I aborted it and launched the file by itself, it exported fine, then restarted the batch export and got the same error, exported the one fine, started again the batch a third time and now it seem to be proceding...

Ah, I did forget to mention, the standard/tonemapped/film use an extra curve that lightens the image as it looked far better than without it.

This is how the processing you are interested in works:
1. linear image (infinite range of values, with help from clever int16 tricks)
2. tonemapping function to roll clipped values off to 1.0 smoothly ("film" tonemapping function and "tonemapped" tonemapping function, standard/rec709/sRGB do not do this stage, therefore has harsh clipping)
3. lighten curve (same in one tonemapped, standard, film)
4. final colour space conversion (where gamma happens)

In rec.709 and sRGB, creative adjustments are disabled and there is no step 2 and 3, which gives the closest to exact sRGB/rec709 colour values but that it no real use for creativity/film making, and neither is it any use for measuring colours as a camera sensor is just not that accurate. Same applies to the log profiles, although they do not have fully correct colour spaces yet.

The order of this will stay the same once the big upgrade has been done, but the individual stages should be more customisable. It does look completely different in code and hopefully that will be clearer as well (right now some of these stages are combined in some ways for both speed and because they were not initially planned).

Ok perfect, it is more clear now. I was having the impression that I was able to replicate the lighten curve (3) with a simple curve in Resolve. I wasn't wrong! I do agree that it looks better, it maybe isn't a good idea to start a professional grade from it, I would use the dngs, but still. And I also still think that colours are not exactly the same, like you said I have to do a rec709 vs rec709 comparison with davinci.

[Ilia3101]

lighten curve ... I do agree that it looks better, it maybe isn't a good idea to start a professional grade from it, I would use the dngs, but still.

If you mean to grade in Davinci, then I completely agree with you. Definitely go with the DNGs. After the big processing upgrade though, the log options will be truly accurate.

The lighten curve and tonemapped profiles exist mainly for doing the grade in MLV App. This works for me, I think MLV App is great, but maybe not the most advanced for all kinds of crazy colour corrections like resolve people do...

And I also still think that colours are not exactly the same, like you said I have to do a rec709 vs rec709 comparison with davinci.

Very likely that there is difference between MLV App and Resolve. Most raw software does something creative to make the colours more pleasing in their view, so there's definitely going to be differences.

Also I think in your example the white balance was cooler in the resolve shot.

[togg]

Yes yes I wasn't really carefull with the WB. I'll test tomorrow if I manage to get those batch export right!

Also I've noticed that at the beginning of a batch all the MAPP files are created. It shouldn't be hard to extrapolate this as a feature, right?


@Ilia3101 If you plan to use MLV App to do a final colour maybe it would be even more usefull to have SAT VS LUMA and SAT VS SAT sliders, as in Resolve. For me it is one of the most important way to correct the digital feeling of the image.

[togg]

OK so this is getting complex so bare with me with all the different issues

1) as expected rec709 in resolve (as selected on the raw panel) and in MLV App looks completelly different. The one in Resolve is way darker : https://imgur.com/a/RkNOEY0

2) After your explanation Ilia I've discovered that I can select Linear for the gamma in the raw panel, select a linear to rec709 in the 3d out table (or as a last node), do a curve in one of the nodes and get almost exactly what we get with tonemapped/standard/film. This is to be expected since I've basically replicated your workflow but it is mindblowing to me than starting from a linear gamma can give such good and easy to manover results. I had heard so many times from colorist "put your rec709 conversion at the end of the pipeline" but never really got those easy results with other options. I was always selecting bmdfilm/gamma to start with etc I'm in shock! thanks.

3) I've isolated the bug "Could not read VIDF image data from:  /Volumes/DNG/etc etc/RAW/M30-1357.MLV" . Actually it never went I way, I had thought to have manage to export the problematic clip (from mlv to compressed mlv) but I was mislead by the fact than when you click once a video in the left panel it actually doesn't do anything, you have to duble click to select. Shouldn't this be changed?
Anyway the error present itself in files that seems to have a black frame at the end, thing is than when exporting to lossless dng everything goes fine. I'll try to upload the mlv to test.



edit: And now I understand why we had to do that very convoluted thing in order to use highlight recovery!! It is because the lighten curve in standard/film/tonemapping is actually crushing the image so in order to get that dinamic range back you have to do all that procedure. We were fighting the curve, now I get it.

[bouncyball]

@togg

Also I've noticed that at the beginning of a batch all the MAPP files are created. It shouldn't be hard to extrapolate this as a feature, right?

Nope, they aren't. They created when each clip is loading.

E.g. when batch processing:
1st clip loaded, if MAPP not present it created, clip is processed, finished with this clip (closed)
2nd clip loaded, if MAPP not present it created, clip is processed, finished with this clip (closed)
and so on...

Anyway the error present itself in files that seems to have a black frame at the end, thing is than when exporting to lossless dng everything goes fine. I'll try to upload the mlv to test.

Yes, upload that clip somewhere please.

bb