crop_rec on steroids: 3K, 4K, 1080p48, full-resolution LiveView

[RTI]

"but there's a trick when you half press the shutter button - it will show you the canon real time image, though 5x punched in but it's very useful to check your focus."

Do you think about 3.5 or 3k mode?

It was confusing, because one of previews guys said that he press info button to get canon zoomed preview in 3k mode, but i can not get it...

So, half press shutter button is trick for 3k or 3.5k mode (preview with info button works for me in 3,5 mode, to)

half shutter for 3.5K crop mode. I'm not sure about the info and 3k 1:1 - I didn't manage to get it working...

[banertop]

I will try it with 3k mode, too.

Thank you for your help,

Cheers

[MichaelVito]

Maybe I missed it, but it doesn't seem like anyone has answered banertop's questions.

1) How to get more than 4 seconds at 3072x1728 in 3K 1:1 crop mode? The answer is indeed you cannot. The 3K 1:1 mode can only record at 14-bit lossless, so even if you set 12-bit lossless or 8-11, it's still going to be 14 lossless. That's a data rate of around 120MB/s! Staying with a 16:9 aspect ratio, the largest continuous resolution you can get in this mode is probably 2560x1440 (84.1MB/s).

2) In 3K 1:1 mode you don't need to use FPS Override if you want to shoot 23.976. That's only needed to come down from 30 in the 3.5K centered mode. Using FPS Override with Exact FPS is the cause of your black screen/dots non-functioning preview. Turn it off completely and enjoy the framing preview.

[12georgiadis]

Maybe I missed it, but it doesn't seem like anyone has answered banertop's questions.

1) How to get more than 4 seconds at 3072x1728 in 3K 1:1 crop mode? The answer is indeed you cannot. The 3K 1:1 mode can only record at 14-bit lossless, so even if you set 12-bit lossless or 8-11, it's still going to be 14 lossless. That's a data rate of around 120MB/s! Staying with a 16:9 aspect ratio, the largest continuous resolution you can get in this mode is probably 2560x1440 (84.1MB/s).

2) In 3K 1:1 mode you don't need to use FPS Override if you want to shoot 23.976. That's only needed to come down from 30 in the 3.5K centered mode. Using FPS Override with Exact FPS is the cause of your black screen/dots non-functioning preview. Turn it off completely and enjoy the framing preview.

What about recording on sd+cf to get 120MB/s ? Or it is not possible ?


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

[banertop]

to MichaelVito

Thanks a lot>))

I figured it out in the meanwhile....

Confusion starts when someone said that the problem could be something else....

Thank again

[hjfilmspeed]

@banertop did you get continuous rec in 3k 1:1? Thats why I suggested 3.5k mode because you can get more reliable 3k.

[banertop]

No, i did not....

Just as MichaelVito wrote...it is not possible

I get some nice 1 min or more (app.) at 2.88k (1:95:1 aspect ratio), witch is so close to 16:9

In general, the lowest the iso is, the more seconds you will get

[MichaelVito]

I shoot 2880x1620 (about 7 seconds) or 2880x1206 (continuous) to get some really great looking HD final output. So 3 pixels become 2, like an Alexa.

With 3.5K centered 5x mode, because vertical resolution is capped at 1320, you hit this wall quickly if you need taller than 2.39:1 aspect ratio. Plus, you need FPS Override to bring the 30fps down to 23.976 or 24, which introduces more instability.

It's fun to use crop_rec on steroids to push the camera to its limits, both 3K and 3.5K open up fun experiments with some Ben-Hur super wide aspect ratios, but I think the 2x crop in 3K 1:1 mode is the most useful when you're doing (or at least trying to do) real work.

[IDA_ML]

When using the losslessly compressed modes (8...11, 12 and 14-bit lossless), the compression ratio depends very much on the scene.  Bright scenes with a lot of fine detail will compress much less than darker scenes with less fine detail.  This of course requires different bandwidth and recording speeds.  Therefore, you will experience a substantial variation in recording times dependent on scene. 

I sometimes borrow a 5D3 from a friend of mine and experiment with it.  Due to the excellent video quality, the 3072x1728 resolution at 24 fps is also my favorite since it fills up the entire area of my 16:9 monitor.  Typically, I use it for landscape videography, timelapses and scenes with a lot of fine detail.  With the fastest card available (1066x) and a normally lit and well exposed (0.0 mark on the histogram) scene, I typically get between 140 and 170 frames before buffer gets full.  When I underexpose the scene by 1 stop (1.0 mark on the histogram), I get about twice as much frames recorded (8-12 seconds @24fps).  Two stops underexposure provides between 420 and 480 frames.  I use the 3K 1:1 mode with the Preview set to Frozen LV for this type of shooting.  For very contrasty and underexposed scenes, I also use Dual ISO and am quite satisfied with the results at this resolution.  It greatly reduces noise in the dark areas which compensates for 1 to 2 stops underexposure for reasonable record lengths.

I also would like to see card spanning for this mode which would allow continuous recording at this resolution but obviously this is not possible with MLV-Lite.  Otherwise, the developers would have implemented it.

[Kokoe]

I shoot 2880x1620 (about 7 seconds) or 2880x1206 (continuous) to get some really great looking HD final output. So 3 pixels become 2, like an Alexa.
With 3.5K centered 5x mode, because vertical resolution is capped at 1320, you hit this wall quickly if you need taller than 2.39:1 aspect ratio. Plus, you need FPS Override to bring the 30fps down to 23.976 or 24, which introduces more instability.
It's fun to use crop_rec on steroids to push the camera to its limits, both 3K and 3.5K open up fun experiments with some Ben-Hur super wide aspect ratios, but I think the 2x crop in 3K 1:1 mode is the most useful when you're doing (or at least trying to do) real work.

MichaelVito - I would LOVE to shoot in 2880x1206. But today, its still a bucket dream. Which build are you using, please?
I downloaded magiclantern-crop_rec_4k.2017Dec19.5D3123.zip and followed instructions on Jonathan DeNicholas excellent Vimeo feed:

.
Loading from X2000 Lexar SD (rec. to Komputabay CF 1000).

Vimeo instruction contradicts suggestion to access 3.5k 1:1 in crop mode (yes x5 is enabled and x10 disabled). Its greyed out. No access.
FYI, all modes above 1920 give me nothing but interference (on Liveview it looks like an old tv interference graded in pinkish).
So I bit my tongue and resorted to a (simpler menu) nightly build.

Any ideas, anyone, for me to see the light and to carry me into this great, 4k in the sky kind of place where you all live happily ever after?

1   Would you suggest I download any modules?
2   Uninstall and reload?
3   Another option that I missed?

Forgive me for growing an issue that may have been dealt with but I looked for a day on the forums to see if there was anything that sounded close to my issue with the pink screen.

Thank you

[a1ex]

Vimeo instruction contradicts suggestion to access 3.5k 1:1 in crop mode (yes x5 is enabled and x10 disabled). Its greyed out. No access.

Every single time a ML menu option is grayed out, there is a message at the bottom of the screen, telling you why it's grayed out. Please read it out loud and do what it says. If that doesn't solve your issue, read on.

I tried everything. Firmware 1.2.3. Firmware 1.1.3 (and I ain't stupid - I can write in C) but sadly, still no 4k for me. Max setting 1920 that is stable. Even the excellent  Topic: crop_rec on steroids: 3K, 4K, 1080p48, full-resolution LiveView post video  that told me exactly what to did not work. Why? If the instructions were complete then why didn't it work?

I suggest it is because the build used on the Vimeo film is the ONLY one it works on.

The video looks fine to me, and it's not outdated (other than the build number printed in the Help menu). If you are seeing anything different:

1) make sure you are really following all the steps from the video
2) if in doubt, watch the video with sound enabled
3) document the difference between what you are seeing and what's in the video properly.

I'd even go as far as asking you to find one (1) single difference on the user interface side between the latest build and what's shown in the video. Without doing that, I somehow doubt you'll be able to tell whether this tutorial is outdated or not.

P.S. Sorry for not giving the answer directly - I want you to find the solution on your own.

Instead of giving you the answer I'm trying to show you how to find the answer. Like the old proverb, "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll sit in a boat all day drinking beer."

[Kokoe]

Every single time a ML menu option is grayed out, there is a message at the bottom of the screen, telling you why it's grayed out. Please read it out loud and do what it says. If that doesn't solve your issue, read on.

The video looks fine to me, and it's not outdated (other than the build number printed in the Help menu). If you are seeing anything different:

1) make sure you are really following all the steps from the video
2) if in doubt, watch the video with sound enabled
3) document the difference between what you are seeing and what's in the video properly.

I'd even go as far as asking you to find one (1) single difference on the user interface side between the latest build and what's shown in the video. Without doing that, I somehow doubt you'll be able to tell whether this tutorial is outdated or not.

P.S. Sorry for not giving the answer directly - I want you to find the solution on your own.

Thanks a1ex. Don't be sorry. I don't expect to be handed any 'fish' on a plate at all or I become less valuable to the team in future testing (and which I intend to do live on client's work). I also don't want to treat any work in a way that disheartens the creation of something that others might take away and never comes back to contribute toward. So please forgive me for asking questions to get to a point of knowing the genius in the work. I spent 2 hours experimenting today and 2 days prior learning as much as I could before I got to this point and became loop ignorant as well as stuck.

Anyway, I tried a search using the Forum Search button for '3.5K 1:1 centred x5' but it brought up a '0' result. A search for 'crop mode' successfully brought me here.

Contrary to your assumption, I have followed everything again in Jonathan's video, word for word and listened carefully, and three times now (varied with reformats in FAT32, reboots etc. on three versions of crop-red inc 2 firmware changes) but without knowing where crop mode lives off other 'needed' menu items, little wonder I am stuck. 

'Crop Mode' is greyed out when selecting 3.5k 1:1
Same message at base of LV saying 'To use this mode, please enable the x5 zoom in Liveview'
PREFS main menu, select 'Liveview zoom tweaks'
Enable x5 (already done)
Disable x10 (already done)
Head back to the 'Crop Mode under MOVIE main menu.

It still says 'To use this mode, please enable the x5 zoom in Liveview'

Little wonder that head scratching goes on with the thought as to whether I have something turned on (did not touch anything since installing ML clean) that Jonathan had on that I don't.
But without knowing what, I thought I would ask if someone with more experience than I, an ML student might learn? By being taught to ask questions. if you want to head me off in a direction then please give me a clue which one. I am happy to learn.

I really do appreciate the work you guys have put in and bravo on this major advance. (Not to mention a huge bravo for coming on here and supporting it directly. I feel honoured and embarrassed, but thank you all the same).

[Walter Schulz]

Anyway, I tried a search using the Forum Search button for '3.5K 1:1 centred x5' but it brought up a '0' result. A search for 'crop mode' successfully brought me here.

Forum search does not use strings with less than 3 letters. Go Google:
http://bfy.tw/Fw9I

[a1ex]

The issue is not string length, but proper spelling. Google can find things even with some misspellings, while forum search cannot.

3.5K 1:1 centered x5

gives the expected result in the search box (try it).

[Kokoe]

Forum search does not use strings with less than 3 letters. Go Google:
http://bfy.tw/Fw9I

Wow! That link was nothing short of amazing !!! Almost felt surreal watching it.

[Kokoe]

The issue is not string length, but proper spelling. Google can find things even with some misspellings, while forum search cannot.

3.5K 1:1 centered x5

gives the expected result in the search box (try it).

Doing that now ... Where I come from the word is 'centred' ... We would need to be sharing at least one beer on a porch to broach the subject (safely and with beings intact) as to who was responsible for something called 'American English' (a contradiction in itself).

[Kokoe]

P.S. Sorry for not giving the answer directly - I want you to find the solution on your own.

I did find the solution. The answer is 'the zoom (magnify button) must be depressed to x5 because it affects ML MENU's ability to select greater resolutions than 1920' ...
Now who on earth would have figured that one out as easy (or stupid, depending on your assessment of me as a noob). OK, so I am an honorary member of the 'DUH' club but head is well scratched and for good reason. Allow me to explain.

Among the Canon's I have had (and relevant to this post, am using today and which in total number: 5), the one thing that one does tend to do on all of them (dumb though we DOP's are) is to think of a <mag> button as a control for a zoom function for anything other than tighter focussing. In this case, a button that 'zooms' picture content less for focussing but more important, so that a zoom calculation enables a mode that affects the ability to access something in a non-linked menu as a prime function (the path to 4k recording).

Yes, how wrong I could be but a given misunderstanding comes from a lack of knowledge, not a proof of idiocy. I will listen to that video again though.

But, in this case, lest we wander on, although zoom was set to x5 in the PREFS main menu selection, the message 'To use this mode, please enable the x5 zoom in Liveview' does not provide enough information to lead one to that realisation. Not immediately. But given that,  most messages have to be shortened to fit them in. it was easy for one to think it meant selecting 'Liveview movie tweaks' in the PREFS menu because, surprise, surprise, there it is sitting in there.

So adding 'To use this mode press the third button up on your camera'... is not your fault at all. Or mine, for that matter. Because dammit Canon, you should have known ML needed a bigger screen to explain it in much greater detail.

Thank you, a1ex.

[a1ex]

Since you are a native English speaker, can you suggest a better help text that would fit there? (up to about 60-70 characters)

BTW, not all cameras have the zoom button in the same position, but all of them will label this mode on screen as x5.

[Kokoe]

Trying to be as succinct as possible without losing an obviousness in the meaning but respecting your limit of space either/or mixes of these could work:

1   To use this mode, exit ML menu & press index/magnify button (59)
2   Mode only selectable after exiting menu & pressing magnify button (65)
3   To use 3.5k 1:1 crop mode exit ML menu & press 3rd button up on left (68)
4   3.5k 1:1 crop mode only selectable via button:index/magnify set to x5 (69)

(I think 2 to be the most truistic). Line 3 knocks out the 'button position rationale' that you gave - e.g.: Canon 70D button is 'top right' so possibly harder to position with text. (Less explaining on screen may be necessary however, following Walter's epoch of a manual).
 
FYI: The reason for the two lines above looking the same in length (as in at first glance) is that although one boasts a longer character count the actual <real> length is down to the set of the font vs. the number of characters.
Not sure which fonts work best at the size for readability for users and may be a limit in coding (having not worked out pixel height vs. x height comparison on screen) but generally, some book font sans are tighter set (Futura vs Helvetica, for example).

Hope his helps and is possibly of use. Thank you for letting me provide some input.

[whysodifficult]

Hello everybody,

I'm sorry if it's not the right place to ask, but are there any reasons to keep 5DIII with Magic Lantern and not to buy Sony a7SII (or rather upcoming a7SIII) for filming/video 4K, avoiding all the hassle with ML? Obviously a7s doesn't have enough resolution for stills, so i mean video-wise.

Thank you a lot!

[kyrobb]

Well there is a big difference between 12 bit 4:2:2 compressed raw 4k and the highly compressed 8 bit 4:2:0 XAVCS 4k slog footage from the A7SII.

The 12 bit raw is infinitely more gradable and depending on where you plan to deliver, you may require at least a 10 bit 4:2:2 source. 8 bit 4:2:0, despite how nice it CAN look, simply isn't a professional delivery standard.

 I would personally choose the new GH5S over an A7SII.

[Markus]

4K is overrated, higher bitdepth raw, dynamic range and lowlight performance is worth so much more. 2k Raw = sweetspot res vs filesize compromise.

[lostfeliz]

A lot of people I know don't even shoot 4k with the A7s ii. They shoot HD. But they like the compact size and the low light capabilities. I used one for the first time over the weekend. Lots of pros and cons vs. 5diii, but the reason I used it was because I was shooting in extreme darkness. Shot the rehearsal with the 5diii and got no exposure, but the Sony got some great images.

The A7s ii doesn't beat the quality of RAW. Really hoping to combine the Lossless RAW with audio recording so I can use it for interviews without needing slates for syncing and get a few more years out of the camera.

https://vimeo.com/251956004

[dfort]

Two bugs squashed and another one found.

We've been having an interesting discussion and testing sessions on the 100D topic. Turns out that there was a bug reported a while back that the 100D will "hiccup" in zoom mode no matter what resolution you use. In addition, while testing the latest focus pixel maps we found out that the 100D in mv1080crop mode (a.k.a. Movie Crop Mode or crop hack) will not work with the 14, 12 and 10 bit uncompressed settings. I made some adjustments to the raw buffer height and skip offsets and was able to not only resolve the 100D issues but also add the full 1080 height to the zoom mode on the EOSM and 700D. I'm assuming that the 650D is also in this group of similar cameras so I made adjustments on that platform too.

Here is the pull request with the changes and I posted test builds on my Bitbucket downloads page.

Here's what I did and why.

First of all the EOSM doesn't report the full buffer height but there is no code to add 1 to the height like there is to subtract 1 for the 5D3. The 700D and 650D also under report height by 1 pixel so I added 1 pixel to the height of the EOSM/700D/650D cameras. The 100D reports the height accurately. We found that subtracting 1-pixel from the height resolves the "hiccup" bug but it sacrifices the maximum image height in zoom mode so I reverted that change.

Next, I looked at the skip offsets. Turns out that there was a little space at the top of the zoom mode buffer so by adjusting that I was able to get rid of a similar "hiccup" issue on the EOSM so I'm hoping this will also work on the 100D. I was able to reproduce the Movie Crop Mode issue on the 700D and resolved it by adjusting the skip_bottom setting. The skip offsets were carefully determined using the raw_diag module from the iso-research branch but it appears that they needed this slight adjustment, probably related to the raw buffer height underreporting issue.

Code: [Select]

        #if defined(CONFIG_EOSM) || defined(CONFIG_700D) || defined(CONFIG_650D) || defined(CONFIG_100D)
        skip_top    = zoom ? 26 : 28;
        skip_left   = 72;
        skip_right  = 0;
        skip_bottom = zoom ? 0 : mv1080crop ? 2 : 4;
        #endif

I did find a bug on the EOSM that I couldn't resolve. When in zoom mode at maximum 2520x1080 resolution if you set the FPS override to "Optimize for Exact FPS" or "Low Jello, 180d" the right side of the image gets chopped off and glitches appear every few frames. Basically, a black bar on the left right side of the frame that can be seen on the LiveView screen if the Preview is set to Auto or Framing. The good news is that it doesn't affect 1920x1080 resolution and the EOSM can record continuously at that image size in zoom mode with 8..11bit lossless compression.



There is some bad news in all this, at least for me--some of these fixes don't work with the new focus pixel maps I just finished working on. Guess there's no such thing as "finished" in Magic Lantern development.

[a1ex]

We found that subtracting 1-pixel from the height resolves the "hiccup" bug but it sacrifices the maximum image height in zoom mode so I reverted that change.

Long answer on bitbucket; I have a feeling most users will prefer clean footage (without hiccups) over "perfect" 1080p resolution

a black bar on the left of the frame that can be seen on the LiveView screen if the Preview is set to Auto or Framing.

I see the bar on the right.

This kind of black bars with FPS override indicate the FPS_TIMER_A_MIN for EOSM is way too low (and may need fine-tuning for each video mode, as it's done on other models). I did question that value back then, when it was backported from TL, but it takes a dedicated tester like IDA_ML, with lots of attention to detail, to narrow down such "subtle" issues that make the camera unusable in certain video modes.

These need double-checking on all models, in all video modes, with raw_diag (OB zones screenshot) and FPS override set to maximum value; that way, the timer A will be minimized, revealing this issue.