"washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7

[Andy600]

@Flocksock Yes I agree and apologies for going well off topic.

[Flocksock]

I posted the problem also on blackmagic forum. But no answer so far.
Someone wants me to put the rendered Videofile back into resolve.
So i did that.

Here is a split screen timeline Image. Original Footage + Rendered file (uncompressed YUV 10 bit.avi)
http://monostep.org/temp/resolve5.jpg

I don't get it. I pressed every single button in the render settings... and try every format.
i rendered 10, 20 videofiles. they all looks the same. all "crushed". Should i test Resolve 11, instead of Resolve 12.
I have no idea how to fix it. grrrrrr.

[ddelreal]

I had better results in 10 and 11. Problems began with 12 and even worse in 12.5 beta.

[Andy600]

@ddelreal - Although there have been some very big changes in v12+ I can't see anything that would make things worse than previous versions other than a small hike in processor usage. If you're having problems with V12 or 12.5 betas it's likely down to configuration.

@Flocksock - In reply #14 you said .avi was exactly the same as the preview with no crushed blacks but your last image is obviously different!? Have you maybe changed something since #14? I'm still guessing it's a video/data levels issue. Try what Walter Volpatto suggested on the BMD Forum and render a few frames to DPX, TIFF or EXR to see if the problem persists. Forget Quicktime for the moment.

[Flocksock]

@Andy600: No. i did not. User "sgofferj" wrote: "when I render to uncompressed YUV AVI, I do NOT see any Gama shift".
In my case.. i tried every unompressed option. Avi and quicktime. And it looked bad.

I don´t think its a video/data level issue.. becaue i testet it here:
http://monostep.org/temp/resolve4.jpg

video level = crushed video look
data level = even more crushed look

Tomorrow or on sunday i will test dpx and tiff. If that doesn´t work i will reinstall Resolve 12.
Than also try 12.5 beta. And after this i try to find an Old version. "Resolve 11"... and try this.


EDIT: Last one thing. I have Quicktime. But when i start Resolve .. Resolve tells me that "Quick time decoder initilization failed" But i don´t give a shit. because i can use resolve. But maybe... Resolve need the "Quick time decoder initilization" thing for rendering. or fucks up my renderings because of that. i don´t know. I should fix that, too... before deinstall Resolve 12.

[DeafEyeJedi]

Not sure how to create inverse luts but I added the sRGB to linear lut from VFX IO(Davinci Resolve) lut to the clip in AE and I assume it,s the same thing? Looks right to me

Damn Danne's at it once again (Thanks @Flocksock) for allowing us to take over your thread (and for good reasons) as it'll not only help solve your color issues being washed out (I still believe it'll come down to your delivery settings within DR) but also help the rest of us to narrow down certain so called bugs related to 32-bit EXR files (overkill or not) in which I think it's still definitely worth to dive into and investigate furthermore.

Also Thanks to @Andy600 for getting back into the game with us. It's such a great feeling having you on board with us again after your much deserved hiatus! 

@Flocksock -- Also ran into this recent thread from the BM Forum Re: 'Quicktime decoder initialization failure' which seems interesting and may help on your end?

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=48017

[Danne]

Sorry for off topic. Hope you solve the issue.

[so-rose]

You could always put your images through Blender's compositor to process the input linearly (serving out correctly marked exr's, or videos, for DaVinci, etc.) - lots of tutorials covering the basics, here's the relevant bit (scroll down to Image Files): https://www.blender.org/manual/render/post_process/cm_and_exposure.html

Just a suggestion

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[reddeercity]

@so-rose , finally someone that understands the power of Blender ! I been using Blender off and on for the last few years , I even bought there DVD tutorial to support them financially.

To all users of QT on Windows OS , Just doing some research on the security vulnerability It seem the real problem is the QT Player and  you must visit a malicious page or open a malicious file.
Apple QuickTime moov Atom Heap Corruption Remote Code Execution Vulnerability

Vulnerability Details
This vulnerability allows remote attackers to execute arbitrary code on vulnerable installations of Apple QuickTime. User interaction is required to exploit this vulnerability in that the target must visit a malicious page or open a malicious file. The specific flaw exists within the moov atom. By specifying an invalid value for a field within the moov atom, an attacker can write data outside of an allocated heap buffer. An attacker could leverage this to execute arbitrary code under the context of the QuickTime player.

So it seem the Apple ProRes Codec is Safe but the player has the issue , As long as you use other QT player Like Irfanview (my favorite) with the QT plugin iv_mmedia.zip **Note this is a 32bit version of the plugin there also a 64bit Win. version , all sure be good again .

For myself I'm not too worried about it 
Sorry being a little off topic , Ok  @sgofferj & @Flocksock I'll do some test on my Windows7 Pro PC workstation with the new resolve beta 2 or 3 (I will have to check) and see for myself the problems you guys are facing and post here ,  one more thing have you Guys every tried MLVProducer ? It's the very Best PC app for progressing ML raw to Cdng's or Color correcting to a intermediate file like Tiff, PNG, FFmpeg ProRes , DNxHD , FFvHuff RGB Lossless and h264 from 4.2.0 quick preview &56mb/s , 4.2.2 75mb/s , 4.4.4 100mb/s and RGB 100 mb/s
It truly is a amazing piece of software and can be run on a Mac with the help "Wine" .

[cmccullum]

Wow this went a long way since I was here last. It seems kind of stupid to suggest at this point, but make sure your output colorspace is not different than your timeline colorspace (or that both are bypassed, or that RCM is off altogether)

[Danne]

Moved the whole EXR discussion here. Feel free to chime in with more thoughts about this side topic if you like.
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=13512.msg168093#msg168093

[Andy600]

@Flocksock - Sorry, it was 1am after a long day and I didn't notice it was @sgofferj who wrote about .avi 

Anyway, I just ran some tests and can't replicate the problem even with Quicktime. There is a very slight gamut shift (not gamma) caused by the codec but nothing to worry about.

If you are using RCM make sure the input colorspace is correct for the re-imported image i.e. if you rendered out Rec709 set it's input colorspace to Rec709.

Check you haven't got any track node or master panel luts active as these are applied to everything.

Grab a still of the original and use reference wipe to A/B against the import making sure you click on the grabbed still and not some other version.

Double check you are importing the correct image/video - accidentally loading a previous version can happen.

Failing that, uninstall Resolve and Quicktime then re-install Resolve and tick the Quicktime option. This should also fix the Quicktime decoder issue on startup (I had the same problem after quickly uninstalling Quicktime Player when the news dropped).

[so-rose]

I looked back and noticed that the "Embedded Color Profile" was "None" - perhaps Quicktime, and Photoshop for that matter is too quick to assume that it's sRGB?

If values are being crushed, it leads me to think that the data is all Linear, nice and intact. Perhaps somehow modifying the image header to report a linear profile would help such programs along?

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Andy600]

In Adobe apps, if there is no embedded profile in the image the app assumes the colorspace to be the same as the working space ICC profile. If it's not you need to add an ICC or lut to map it to the workspace. Also, depending on the codec used, if the image was rendered with data levels and there is no embedded profile you can get legal/full range issues.

[Flocksock]

I uninstalled Resolve 12 and Quicktime.

Than i installed an old Davini Resolve 11 Version.
And the newest Quicktime Version.
Resolve 11 starts without "Quicktime missing Warning" (good)

Droped that uncompressed file into the Resolve 11 Timeline. Render it out.
And the colors are still crushed. WTF. WHY?
After that i importet a simple jpg file into the timeline.
renderd it out. Colors are stil crushed.

I simple don't get it. I teste Premiere, AE, different players.
I skipped from DNG to a simple uncompressed avi file... to test it.
Why is Resolve 12 and 11 changing the colors in the rendering.
Its a "fresh install".

Any more sugesstions? My next plan is to install Resolve 12.5 beta... but i don't think that will fix my problem.

EDIT


CHECKED - if you rendered out Rec709 set it's input colorspace to Rec709.
CHECKED - Check you haven't got any track node or master panel luts active as these are applied to everything.
CHECKED - Grab a still of the original and use reference wipe to A/B against the import making sure you click on the grabbed still and not some other version.

I've checked that all.
No' ive rendered some tiff sequenze out of Resolve. And the tiff sequenze looks perfect! no crushed colors!
But when i render avi, movs.. allways crushed. So it has something to do with "Resolve Video rendering setting/engine".
Any sugesstions? (btw. i've got that "Quicktime missing" again. Also at Resolve 11. Is that important. because i don't
know how to fix it. I re-installed Quicktime. But Resolve still say its missing. But i starts.. so i don't klnow.

[Danne]

Check this
forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=38658#p230523

[DeafEyeJedi]

Upload an original MLV of the file that you have been working on. I'd like to try it on my end and compare if you rather?

That way we can compare the settings specs and maybe we'll narrow down to certain ones that you may have missed?

It'll be worth for all of us to learn from this together as a whole at the end of the day.

[Flocksock]

@Danne: I will check this out later. Thanks!
@DeafEyeJedi: thanks. I thought it was a .mlv / dng problem. But its not. It doesn't matter if i take DNG files, uncompressed avi, h264, or simple a JPG.
I took a jpg... put it into Resolve timeline and if i render it out the video file is "crushed". And it was a new install of Davinci Resolve 11. And i did
not change any settings. When i render tiff-seqenze. Its fine.

So. Thanks for your help. But i have no idea how we can mange it together?
First i have to fix that anoying "Quicktime decoder initialization failure". Maybe thats the problem. Maybe not.
I want to fix that first. So i can say: ok, thats not the problem. And than go on.

[DeafEyeJedi]

Then take screenshots of all your settings within DR and maybe we'll be able to see what's the problem?

[Flocksock]

@Danne: thanks for the link. very interesting. But i'm using Win7 and sadly this will not work in Win7.

So i still got the "Quick Time encoder initialization failed." when i start Resolve.
So i uninstalled Resolve 11. And switched back to Resolve 12. (latest stable version)

Old "Resolve 12" was Version 12.2.013
New "Resolve 12" is Version 12.3.

I am now able to render "uncompressed YUV-10bit AVI" Files... and the image looks great! (no crushed colors. 100% perfect)
And also tiff images. Looks 100% perfect.
I´m in the same boat as sgofferj posted yeterday:
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=17351.msg168049#msg168049

When i try to render mpeg4, quicktimes, or whatever... i allways got crushed colors.
If you want i can post screenshots of all my settings. But i think my settings are fine.
(because tiffs and uncompressed avi looks fine. so my settings must be fine. right?)

Problem: I do not want tiffs or uncompressed avis. Because they are very big.
The next steps are:

1. Fix "Quick Time encoder initialization failed." on Win7. (i will not switch to Win10) And hope that this will fix the render issues, too.
If you read this: https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=38658#p230523
i think this is also a problem with Win7. There must be away that "Quicktime" and "Resolve" communicate witch each other.
Uninstall will not solve the problem.

2. Fix a new problem: As i rendered the file... the image flickers.. and now i got this "RED !" .. also in my timeline.
I restart Resolve 12.. but it is still there.


God damn... REEEEEEEESOLVE. WHY. so much frustration. But i will not give up.

And here is a link to the test image i'm using:
http://s33.postimg.org/xuit7oxbx/test_AE_JPG.jpg
(no DNG ... simple jpg)

[Andy600]

Ok, found the problem and it is levels as I thought

In Resolve you need to set your clip attributes for the re-imported rendered media. This is similar to 'interpret footage' in After Effects.

On the Media page, right+click on a clip in the lower right bin and select 'Clip attributes' then change the Data Levels setting to Video and click OK - you may still get a gamma shift with Quicktime i.e. the long standing Quicktime problem.

[Flocksock]

My window looks a bit different.





If i switch from "Auto" to "Data" the footage looks the same in the Timeline. And i get the full range. (no chrushed colors)
if i change to "video" i got chrushed colors in the timeline. So I do not want to change it to "Video" because that allready crushed
my blacks in the timeline. So i go with "DATA".

The strange thing is.
In the render settings i also can choose between DATA und VIDEO.
If i choose DATA or VIDEO ... the video is still chrushed. And its more chrushed when i'm using "data".
Like in this Screenshot:
http://monostep.org/temp/resolve4.jpg

Of course i can interprete the footage as VIDEO .. and than color grade it. And i am able to get the same results out.
But this ist not what the original footage looks like... when i drop it in AE / Premiere / or watch it in VLC / Media Player Classic.
I have to choose "DATA" so my colors are not crushed in the timeline. But than it just looks like this:
http://monostep.org/temp/resolve4.jpg

i cannot get it out. Only if i render tiffs or uncompressed YUV 10-bit .avi files.

[Andy600]

I'm still certain it's a levels interpretation issue. Every codec is designed to work with either legal or data levels (this can also be different for each codec in one family) but you can override this and cause gamma multiplication or division problems.

If you are simply looking at the same clip in different apps you will nearly always see differences because some apps are color managed and some are not (AE is and Premier is not).

The key thing is that ultimately you will be producing a single deliverable (unless it's a feature going to multiple formats) and if it's for web or TV this will usually be Rec709 in H.264 so your choice of intermediate file is ultimately dictated by file size and how much compression/loss you can afford.

You shouldn't get hung up on how it looks in Premier vs VLC etc because afterall, who will be watching your video in Premier except you? I can all but guarantee it will look different again on Youtube vs Vimeo vs Media Player.

You could render proxies and export it with an XML, edit in Premier and round-trip back to Resolve relinking to the original media for a final grade and H.264 export so you lose nothing or render as log to grade and deliver in whatever app you choose.

The levels issue is really only an issue when there are multiple sources in different codecs and you have the job of matching them - if it's all coming from the same camera then all the shots will have the same levels in terms of interpretation.

I typically render in ProRes, DNxHD or DNxHR, occasionally DPX or EXR for VFX and rarely in Cineform by request. Try DNxHD and leave output set to auto (safest). If you're editing in Premier or AE pre CC2015 then select Rec709 in the Resolve timeline (not Rec709 2.2 or 2.4 gamma) and set AE workspace to Rec709 (you could also try Rec709 16-235) - this will probably force you to increase gamma globally in Resolve (if you're not heavy grading and the shots are fairly similar then use a track node).

DNxHD should be interpreted properly by PP/AE and don't forget to click 'preserve embedded profile' in AE or you may be assigning an additional color profile when the shot is already in the correct colorspace. If you want to color manage Premier you need to do it via AE using dynamic link - Premier is not color managed.

[Flocksock]

I record alot of RAW Footage right now. For a documentary film. So this if for Filmfestivals.
Even if my output is "only" for Youtube / Vimeo / TV ... still the colors are OF.

Its definitly NOT normal when i put a jpg into a timeline.. and render it out... the colors are
crushed. It looks good in AE, Premiere, Phothsop, VLC, Quicktime, Media Player Classic, and also on youtube, vimeo, etc.
It also looks 100% perfect in Davinci Resolves Timeline, and 100% perfect if render it out as tiff / uncompressed avi.

" I can all but guarantee it will look different again on Youtube vs Vimeo vs Media Player" ... simple NOT TRUE.
I renderd files in AE / Premiere as uncompressed, convert it to h264, upload it on Youtube and Vimeo.
And my timeline image looks the same as the rendered file, and the online video still looks the same.
Maybe some shifting in the red tones. maybe some artefakts. But not THIS:
http://monostep.org/temp/resolve5.jpg

The solution with XML is not working. At the end i'm still stucked to render with DaVinci Resolve.
And i cannot render h264 or any quicktime. Only unkompressed or tiff. If i edit in Premiere.. so what?
That doesnt' fix my problem.

And talking about different cameras, and different codecs. I'm not talking about DNG or h264 as import material.
I can simple grab any JPG i have on my desktop, or tif, or png.. put in into my Resolve Timeline.. where it looks PERFECTLY fine.
After rendering it out... it "color crushed" (but not if i render tiff or uncompressed".

Its a bug in Resolve. Or some BUG how Resolve communicates with Quicktime... but Quicktime won't star with Resolve.
Or maybe its a "colorspace" bug... and i have to find the right button in the Settings. But there are "Resolve Settings",
than Clip interpretations stettings. And render settings. and thats it. Andi dont' want to "deal with" it.

[Andy600]

" I can all but guarantee it will look different again on Youtube vs Vimeo vs Media Player" ... simple NOT TRUE.

Maybe some shifting in the red tones. maybe some artefakts...

So true then 

What I said was generalized. Any unintended change from one rendering of the image to another, due to re-encoding, is a difference, no matter how small.


But anyway, I'm trying to help you here.

Lets tackle the Quicktime problem. You are on Win7 right? We have windows 7 machine that 'had' the same problem Quicktime initialization issue a month or so back. To fix it we uninstalled Resolve and Quicktime then installed Resolve (12.5 beta) and let Resolve install Quicktime (it's a tickbox option on the installer).

Try that then try rendering a Quicktime file - if you can't then you probably have an issue with Windows, not Resolve. I still don't see this a Resolve bug for one reason - Quicktime is working here and on a lot of other systems.

What codec did you render to that showed the 'crushing'? and what app did you view it in to see the crushed image? - I'll try to replicate your exact chain here so lets use your Jpeg that you posted earlier.

What codec do you want to use and why? If you can explain your basic workflow we'll get a better idea of how you work.