Author Topic: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7  (Read 23106 times)

Flocksock

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 95
"washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« on: June 01, 2016, 01:30:06 AM »
I've got a strange problem in Resolve. The Image
in Resolve looks "washed out" / grey. but when i render it.. it looks fine.

Here is a screenshot:
http://monostep.org/temp/resolve.jpg

i rendered a uncompressed avi file. So no codec / compression algoryhtm which
changes the colors or something. Any idea how to fix it?
btw. when i start Resolve i've got the "Quicktime thing not found". (but i've got quicktime)
Might that be the problem?

ddelreal

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 109
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2016, 02:30:22 AM »
Interesting, I have the opposite problem with Resolve on Mac. Looks fine in the viewer but washed out in the rendered version.

cmccullum

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2016, 02:53:45 AM »
Check your color management settings. If you went mucking about with them at some point you could've mucked something up

Andy600

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1863
  • Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2016, 09:33:51 AM »
Two things - the GUI monitor is not color managed and can't really be trusted. You need to be working with external, calibrated monitor to be sure that what you see is what you get and secondly it looks like a legal vs full range levels problem to me. Try changing the levels setting to data levels in the main setup panel.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Danne

  • Developer
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7125
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2016, 10:45:03 AM »
@Andy600. Off topic but I have some similar issue with EXR files. When previewed on mac and also opened up in photoshop gamma is way brighter than when imported to DaVinci resolve. Tried imagemagick and DaVinci resolve EXR output and both shows a different gamma in photoshop than in DR. Unfortunately on the road but could share some example files tonight.

Flocksock

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2016, 12:46:51 PM »
@Andy600: I've changed the level settings to data levels... but there is no change.
Here is another screenshot:
http://monostep.org/temp/resolve2.jpg

Maybe the "preview" is not washed out. (in resolve i made a test and crushed the blacks, and also lighten up the
image to pure white... make a screenshot and checked the color in Photoshop. Its 100% black and 100% white)
So the preview in Resolve is not "washed out". But in the final rendering the blacks are more "crushed".
The image has more contrast. (as you can see in the screenshot). I'm using ML DNG  Files from Canon 50D. Convertet
with MLViewer.

to me... it doesn't look like "washed" out anymore. Becaue i get 100% black and 100% whiote in Resolve.
Its more that in the uncompressed output file... somehow the "dynmaic range" is gone. And the blacks are "crushed".


Flocksock

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2016, 10:10:35 PM »
I did another test. Here is a screenshot:
http://monostep.org/temp/resolve3.jpg

1. I took the DNG Files into AE and rendered an"uncompressed avi" file.
2. I took that avi file into Davinci Resove. So far so good. The file looks good in AE, looks good in my Media Player Classic / VLC, and looks good in Davinci Resovle. perfect.
3. After i rendered that file with Davinci Resolve... (as mpeg4, h264, or uncompressed) the blacks are crushed, whites are brighten up, skin tones looks different, etc.

As you can see in the screenshot. So it has nothing to do with the DNG Files.
The Preview in Resolve is also fine. 100% accurate.
Only the last step... rendering in Resolve... "changes" the colors. I have no idea
how to fix that.

cmccullum

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2016, 01:40:52 AM »
No comment on the color management settings in resolve...?

Flocksock

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2016, 02:27:16 AM »
sorry. somehow forget about your comment... cause i think i checked all the settings from top to buttom. Tomorrow i will have a closer look at the "color management settings".

markodarko

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2016, 05:21:21 AM »
i rendered a uncompressed avi file. So no codec / compression algoryhtm which
changes the colors or something.

Ah, kemosabe, but even an uncompressed avi has a color space - even if it's "undefined".

My money is on mixed or unassigned color spaces or your player gamma. I know on a Mac that there's a "feature" in Resolve called "use Mac display color profile". If there's a similar thing on Win then I'd uncheck that for starters.

Find out what color space your exported AVI is in (sRGB / Adobe RGB / Generic RGB / Rec.709 / Undefined etc). If it's undefined then perhaps the Windows playback program you're using is _assuming_ it's in X color space (probably sRGB?) and is interpreting it as such even though it's in Y?

On a Mac I know that the Quick Time player will playback MOV files in the wrong gamma. It's a known problem that's been around for years. Not sure what playback app you're using but if it's QT player you could look into playing your footage through some other player such as VLC to check.

Just some ideas. No idea if they're applicable as I haven't been on Win for years I'm afraid.

Mark.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sgofferj

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2016, 06:58:08 AM »
There is a known problem with QuickTime messing up the colors when rendering. Some software has found a way around it. Resolve hasn't. I had the same issue as ddelreal and found the only way around it was to render to AVI uncompressed YUV and then compress to h264 with libx264.
@andy600:
To my understanding, the GUI vs. dedicated (calibrated) monitor only applies when viewing the render on a different system. When I use the GUI viewer for grading and then view the render on the same system and the same monitor that ran the GUI viewer, the render should look identical to the GUI viewer.
18+ years Linux user, wolf-fan, hobby photographer and -filmmaker
EOS 6D, EOS 7D

ddelreal

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 109
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2016, 07:38:10 AM »
@sgofferj
That's good to know, thanks for the heads up.

sgofferj

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2016, 08:43:23 AM »
Here's a post of William Aleman in the BMD forums about that: https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6557&p=281742#p281622
3 posts above is my test results.
18+ years Linux user, wolf-fan, hobby photographer and -filmmaker
EOS 6D, EOS 7D

reddeercity

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2271
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2016, 08:56:22 AM »
Color Management , you need to learn more about it .
I uses Resolve on Mac & Win7 PC and never had a problem with wash out color , but there again I monitor though my
blackmagic USB 3.0 ultra studio sdi  on the HDMI connection to Panasonic plasma calibrated with Datacolor Colorimeter .
This is the Only way you know you are 100% sure ,  as @Andy600 Said "You can not relay on GUI monitor period .
Computer monitors run in different Color & Gamma Space , then legal broadcast color .
 
There is a known problem with QuickTime messing up the colors when rendering.
Really , I think you my be thinking about gamma shift when to render a image sequence thought QT Pro Player (that's known)
When I'm in Resolve win7 I use QT Blackmagic RGB Codec all the time Very good codec or the AJA QT uncompressed codec .
So what I'm saying is It doesn't matter what codec you use to export to as master it's all basically the same .
You must remember you are going from linear color space to compressed color space even in the uncompressed AVI (and that a whole story by it's self, 8bit,10bit,12bit,16bit , Log space)
I really have to disagrees with what you are saying , Sorry.

Edit: Even when I plug my Ultra Studio in to a standard HDMI (rec709 16-235)  HDTV LED I get the same results as my Plasma @ Full range 0-255
Not to sure if you QT in PC is the same as Mac encoding , bit you can disable Gamma Correction in the MAC QT encoder but I never needed to do this on the PC Wins7


sgofferj

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2016, 11:15:48 AM »
I think, you are missing the point :). A calibrated monitor through a dedicated output guarantees a consistent result on different viewing systems (minus user settings) but as I said, I was talking about viewing the render result on the same monitor on the same system that I used the GUI monitor on. In that case, the render result should look identical to what you see in the GUI viewer - minus compression loss, of course.

I did a ton of tests and I found that when I render to any Quicktime format, I see a Gamma shift in the render, even when I render to uncompressed YUV with Quicktime. However, when I render to uncompressed YUV AVI, I do NOT see any Gama shift. In that case, the render looks exactly like the preview in the GUI viewer.
According to what was written by others in the BMD forum and what I found myself through Google, this problem in Quicktime is known since 2010! There's even well known workarounds on MAC using Apple Compressor.
18+ years Linux user, wolf-fan, hobby photographer and -filmmaker
EOS 6D, EOS 7D

Andy600

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1863
  • Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2016, 12:43:19 PM »
Check your rendering 'Data levels' settings in the Deliver page. It's likely set to Auto but try rendering a short clip with video levels and again with data levels.

Yes, there is a long running issue with QT but AFAIK it is a H.264 and QT Player issue and besides, the QT player should be uninstalled for security reasons now). I use DNxHD for HD and DNxHR for 4K when rendering in Windows and wish BM would add avi support for the codecs. If you're getting identical results with YUV .avi why not use that? - you don't have to use Quicktime.

What exactly are you delivering for? or is this for mastering?

@Danne - Yes, it's the same story with EXR in other apps. In AE you can assign an ICC color profile to an EXR (control it's interpretation) but not, I believe, in PS although I haven't really worked with EXR in PS. I need to do some research into this - there may be something in the proofing settings that can be used.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Danne

  • Developer
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7125
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2016, 01:14:08 PM »
That is what,s puzzling me. Even if I would change icc profiles gamma starting point is still way off compared to DaVinci resolve starting point. How can I match input source exactly between programs? Here,s an example EXR file.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4tCJMlOYfirdEdvZElwdzlVYXM/view?usp=sharing

Andy600

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1863
  • Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2016, 01:37:15 PM »
@Danne - I think it's likely that getting the exact same result across all apps is a tall order due to the different color management regimes and quirks of individual apps - not all app devs follow guidelines and standards to the letter. I did however, manage to get a good match between Resolve and AE with EXR files in ACES using custom-built ICC profiles but I haven't tried them in PS yet. I'll take a proper look when I have some time - snowed under with work at the moment.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

sgofferj

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2016, 02:20:59 PM »
@Andy600:
Jep, that's what I'm doing mostly - rendering to AVI and then using ffmpeg and libx264 for compressing. I'm mostly delivering for YouTube at the moment.

I tried forcing data levels and the render looks more like the GUI viewer bit then with more clipped highlights.
18+ years Linux user, wolf-fan, hobby photographer and -filmmaker
EOS 6D, EOS 7D

Flocksock

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2016, 02:50:59 PM »

1. I´m using an EIZO Monitor. But i think it doesn't matter. Even if you work on some cheap monitor.. and you
 see a difference with the output file you can take a screenshot and check the colors in photoshop. To make it clear:
I am using ONE Monitor. Not two.. and the screenshots are from the same monitor.
2. I´m not using Quicktime. I checked the rendered file in Media Player Classic, VLC Player and Quicktime. It looks the same. I also checked my NVIDIA Card Settings.
3. I rendered "uncompressed YUV", "uncompressed RGB", "mpeg4", "DNxHD", DNxHR", "h264", etc... all with the same results.

I allways looks like this:
http://monostep.org/temp/resolve3.jpg



@cmccullum: what should i do in the "color management settings"? I can only change the colorspace in
the timeline... but thats not the problem. The footage in the timeline looks fine! not washed out. It
looks exactly like the footage i imported. But the rendered file looks "crushed". "Broadcast save" is OFF.
And no LUTS selected.



@Andy600: You wrote i should check "'Data levels' settings in the Deliver page". It was on "auto"
I tested "data level" mode and "video level" mode. Here is the result:


http://monostep.org/temp/resolve4.jpg

I get better results with "video" levels.. but its still "crushed".
As I wrote before. The Input video looks 100% perfect in the Resolve timeline.
But the output file is still to dark. Its a bit better when using "video mode".
but it should be 100% correct. not 99% correct. When i render an uncompressed file in AE or Premiere
(with no color grading) the output file looks exact the same as the input file. That is what i'm testing
right now with Davinci Resolve. And i don't get it why the image is getting "crushed".

Danne

  • Developer
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7125
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2016, 02:55:45 PM »
@Andy600. Seems icc handling is pretty much the same in photoshop AE and lightroom. Unfortunately ACR won,t let you choose any but their four preset profiles.
The lack of standard in color management seems the main reason not to work with exr except than with niched projects that fully understand how to integrate and work this format. Producing 32-bit exr from 14-bit dng files is maybe overkill anyway.

Danne

  • Developer
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7125
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2016, 09:43:38 PM »
Seems photoshop is pushing exr files to gamma 2.2 when it should be linear 1.0. Then DaVinci Resolve is respecting linear output for exr format.
A "fix" is to set midpoint to 0.45 to get back to linear.

http://forums.cgarchitect.com/80010-saving-exr-gamma-settings.html
Quote
If you were comping your EXR's you'd want them to remain linear, and as such they shall appear too dark. But you want to do the maths on them like this. To see what you are getting as a result, you would put a gamma of 2.2 on top of the comp. In PS I would do this with a levels adjustment layer at the top of the stack. The mid point is set to zero by default, but you can type in 2.2 (or 0.45 if required) to adjust the gamma output.

If you're not concerned with linear compositing, it's still useful to know.

Closer

Photoshop


DaVinci Resolve



Some more stuff in AE. By selecting Preserve RGB(interpret footage) the output seems linear.




Changing color settings in AE as well




Pretty much matches DaVinci Resolve output
After effects


Davinci Resolve


Set to camera RGB profile seems even closer


In photoshop you can set RGB to convert to actual rgb and it will show the correct linear gamma

Andy600

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1863
  • Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2016, 10:22:50 PM »
@Danne - Instead of setting gamma to .45 try the inverse of the sRGB transfer function (as a lut). I'll bet it matches precisely.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Danne

  • Developer
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7125
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2016, 10:41:58 PM »
Not sure how to create inverse luts but I added the sRGB to linear lut from VFX IO(Davinci Resolve) lut to the clip in AE and I assume it,s the same thing? Looks right to me :)


Flocksock

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 95
Re: "washed out" colors in Resolve 12 - Win7
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2016, 11:19:43 PM »
"pushing exr files to gamma 2.2"? Inverse Luts? what?
Guys... why not start a new thread about "exr" / "icc" /"sRGB" / "Luts" / "ACR", etc...
#justsayin #nohate

;)