Resolve 11 vs. AE CS6 - different "look" of noise

[mothaibaphoto]

WB is never the same in DR and ACR, even if you enter the same numbers in temp and tint.
It seems doesn't matter for ACR, what tool you use for produce DNG - as long, as camera tag is present. But for DR it matters: DNG from MLVProducer, for example, has more vibrant colors than from raw2dcng and mlv_dump.
Yes, sometimes DR crashes, AE - never

[DeafEyeJedi]

Perhaps try using MLVFS or MLP to get the best out of DNG's in order to minimize the noise results as much as possible since it won't be "compressed" similar to how MLRV does.

[Flocksock]

fog.MLV (around 700 MB - the foggy night scene)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B40YiSxH8aq8Ujh2QkZsd2U2WmM/view?usp=sharing

If any other person can get better results in Davinci Resolve than i do... that would be great.
But not with any noise reduction plugins. just the "raw sliders".
Maybe my dng files suck. i' dont know.
But if AE and mlvproducer looks so much better than Resolve... it must be possible to get
similar results in Resolve, too.

And the "fog.MLV" File is just a test. I don't care about it (its underexposed and Iso1600 just to see the noise).
But i care about other, well shoot scenes,
ISO 200, ISO 400 files... and there i also got really ugly noise  in Resolve and i realy want to fix that.
The next days i will definitly try "MLVFS" and "MLP".

[hjfilmspeed]

There is a way in DR to make a layer node and split it into a luma node and a color node and if you apply a little blur to the color node it gets rid of some color noise. Not sure how i feel about the results though.
https://vimeo.com/68459408
Also you can try the neatvideo noise reduction plug in as suggested above.
Or you could render a flat tiff sequence from ACR and then grade it in Resolve. There are a ton of flat log camera profiles for ACR. But you still loose a lot of hours that way.
The only other thing you could do is tell the guys at BMD to try to improve there DNG decoding even more or make a special SDK for ML RAW DNGs but that's a big battle to fight not sure if its worth it.

[Flocksock]

Thanks. But i know noise reduction tools like neat and other. I don't need / want to use them.
As i said before. THIS is "testfootage". I don't need to fix noise in it. I just recognize HUGE difference
between AE and Resolve. On files which are shoots at "ISO 200" .. and i don't want to use noise reduction
on this file. Its not about "noise reduction" or "get rid of noise. I LOVE the noise in the AE Version.
I love analog noise, and digital noise.
BUT.. the AE Noise looks so much better than the noise in Resolve. And i don't know why.
Is it the DNG FIles? or some metadata? 12bit, 16 bit problem?
Is the Adobe Raw Converter 10 Times better than Resolve? (i don't think so)

[Danne]

Different debayering algorithms.

[baldavenger]

Have you tried subtracting a dark frame? It might help with at least some of the noise.

You can find instructions here:

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=9861.msg94883#msg94883
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=14414.0

[hjfilmspeed]

^^^ + 1 about the debayering algorithms and the split node method I mentioned above doesn't get rid of the noise it evens out the color noise a little bit. But I think it's been said enough here that adobe has better algorithms for Debayering at the cost of speed. I have been using resolve for a while and this has always been the case. But on some of the edits i have done where i over shot , I would never have made it thorough the coloring stage with ACR for time sake. You could use resolve for scrubing through you footage and deleting then process the raws an color grade them through AE using ARC for your final grade. Other then the method I mentioned above I don't know of anything else you could tick in Resolve to help this. Sometimes certain LUTs in Resolve bring out more noise too so be careful of that. But at this point unless resolve and adobe work together that's all you can do. Have you tried adobe speedgrade? A lot of people like that.

[Flocksock]

thanks for your answer. AE is so damn slow to show DNG files in realtime... and so damn slow in rendering. (But i can render all night.. thats not the big problem. but realtime editing, color grading in Resolve is 100x times better than AE.)
Never heard of Adobe Speedgrade... i will check it out. I really wonder if i'm the only one who noticed the big difference between AE and Davinci. Even when you shoot with a 5D mark 2 or 3.. and ISO100 / 200 / 400 .. you allways got some noise in the shadows and in AE it looks so much better. well. anyway. Thanks for all the help.

[hjfilmspeed]

Oh we all notice the difference in the noise between both programs but its a matter of speed vs debayer algorithms. Most of the time I choose slightly uglier noise vs 10 hours of rendering. I would love to combined them both. But i am no programer. I wasn't the biggest fan of speedgrades layout but a lot of people like it.
Try MLVProducer too. It lets you choose debayering options! These guys on this forum are BRILLIANT! The programs, scrips , modules, are all just amazing and I have no clue how they do it.

[mothaibaphoto]

There is a way in DR to make a layer node and split it into a luma node and a color node and if you apply a little blur to the color node it gets rid of some color noise.

But almost the all noise in that night fog is luma noise

Even when you shoot with a 5D mark 2 or 3.. and ISO100 / 200 / 400 .. you allways got some noise in the shadows and in AE it looks so much better. well. anyway. Thanks for all the help.

No, I didn't confirm that. I produced a lot footages from MarkIII(ISO100 / 200 / 400, correctly exposed) with DR and there was no one such noisy.

[Levas]

I remember there is something with color settings in Resolve
I believe its called colorspace and it can be set in the raw tab.
Whenever I used 'bmdfilm' I got sort of posterized colors, especially in the blue colors, like denim jeans and stuff.
Bmdfilm colorspace doesn't work too well for ML Raw dng's.
Use rec709 colorspace instead.

[DeafEyeJedi]

@Levas ... Are you referring to the 32-bit float point?

[Flocksock]

OK... i did some more Tests in "Resolve 12"...

LEFT = Color space = BMD Film (but i have to push the satuation up to 100)
RIGHT = Color space = Rec.709 (but i don't have to push up any sliders for the colors)



It start to look so MUCH better, than the Resolve 11 Version. I don't got
the Resolve 11 Version anymore. But i know that i use "BMD Film", too.. instead of Rec.709.
I pushed/klicked any button. But nothing changes in "Resolve 11".

So when i use "bmd film"... the noise looks much better.
But the whole image looks grey. I have to push the saturation up to 100%
to get the colors back.

In the "Project Settings" (Resolve 12) i choose "CinemaDNG".
So its getting better with the noise in Resolve 12... but its weird that when i use
BMD Film the Noise is so much better... but the image is "grey" (like black and white)...
i really have to push the saturation to 100.. and it stills looks washed out.

I just want to show you some new results. I will try to use other "MLV to DNG" Converting Tools
(not using the MLV Viewer). and hope Resolve will not crash. And when i get that "foggy night" scene
the way i wanted. (similar Colors / Noise like in AE) ... than i will test some footage with more
color in it.. like the "green bowl" scene.

[Flocksock]

Edit some more footage (The scene with the chair and the green bowl).
I got the best results with:

Color Space = BMD Film
Gamma = BMD Film 4.6K

The scenes are all "washed out" ... but its fine. I aplied some simple 1D Luts to it.
Testet "Canon Log to Rec709" and "Canon Log to Video". I still have to push the Saturation up to 50.
And add some simple S-Kurves... but now the image i got from Resolve is almost as good as i get in AE.
No "ugy noise" anymore.

I checked the Forum for the best Workflow.. but only found some strange threads how to like
a "Lightroom Workflow" which is interesting.. to do the colorcorrection in Light room.. and
expport the files in High JPGS.. and edit those jpgs sequenze in Premiere. So the rendering is fast, too.
And Lightroom got the same "RAW Converter" like AE / Photoshop... so its very good.

But if someone got some more "MUST READ threads" about worklflow / Resolve / ... best way to convert MLV files
feel free to post it here

[baldavenger]

Seems like a very Helen Keller approach to the problem, but as long as you're happy with the results then that's the most important thing.

If you want to have a better understanding of the process you should probably concentrate of getting to grips with log and the main colour spaces, and what they are specifically meant for.

Lots of useful info on the Cinelog thread.

[keepersdungeon]

Amazing thread! Very useful information, thank you all for sharing!

[Flocksock]

hmmmm. I'm switching back and forth between "Resolve" and "ACR"
"CinemaDNG" is from Adobe... so i think ACR is more powerfull debayering DNG Files.
(also very good in raw sharpening / denoise. a litte bit better than Resolve.)

BUT. AE is extremly slow for editing dng files.
My Idea is to EDIT all the dng files in "Photoshop".
But i cannot open 400 files in Photoshop. But i thought i can use "Bridge"... and EDIT
only one DNG file... than "copy" that raw-adjustment to all 400 other dng files in the same folder.
After that i could open those "modified ACR sharpened DNG" files into Resolve and do the edit.

In Photoshop/bridge its also very easy to add "camera profiles" like "Vision Log"
(http://www.vision-color.com/visionlog/)
to the dng file.. to apply a flat look.

Its a bit like this Workflow in Lightroom:
JPEG workflow for ML RAW video using only Lightroom and Premiere
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6864.0

only with "Adobe Bridge."

PROBLEM: I tried the right mouse button on a dng file an click "open in camera raw". But i got a error message.
I updated bridge, photoshop and camera raw plugin.. but i simple cannot "open in camera raw".
i searched 1 hour to fix that problem... but found no solution.
i searched this forum if someone tried this workflow... but found nothing.
I did not want to start a new thread, yet.

[Walter Schulz]

If you open a DNG in PS it will be opened with CR. CR is not a standalone program.

[DeafEyeJedi]

Have you ever tried "SmartImport2" in AE which allows you edit ONE DNG (in ACR) per MLV and it'll apply to all DNG's under that particular MLV.

Works really well on my end ... Give it a try while running MLVFS.

[mothaibaphoto]

so i think ACR is more powerfull debayering DNG Files.
(also very good in raw sharpening / denoise. a litte bit better than Resolve.)

ACR has more features,  indeed - local adjustments is a killer feature for example.
But, ACR, actually, very bad in sharpening compared to DR. I did this conclusion after comparing a very crisp shots in crop mode with great lenses. DR makes good even better, ACR did mess and oversharpened look.
And ACR denoise is better just compared to nothing. If you compare it to any third party plugin you'll see that ACR much more blur the image.

[Flocksock]

Thanks for all the feedback. In the next days / weeks i will do more test scenes, and do more research to optimize
the workflow.

[Flocksock]

Did some more tests. Got some more questions about Davinci Resolve 12.
About interpreting footage.


Sime suning "DaVinci YRGB" (Color Science Settings)
I simple choose "Cinema DNG" in the "Camera Raw Settings"
When I'm at "COLOR" in Resolve... i simple select "Clip" (Decode Using)
and in "Color Space" i have the options between "Rec.709" and "BMD Film" and "BMD Film 4.6k"


BREAKDOWN:

1.
I simple choose "Clip" in the "Decode Using" Setting.. and after that chose the Color Space.
Is this ok? Or should i do some other settings in "Project Settings"?


2.
In "Color Space" I can choose between "Rec.709" and "BMD Film 4.6k".
In Rec.709 everything looks fine.. but the noise sucks (as seen in my screenshots). When I choose "BMD Film 4.6k"
the image looks realy realy flat...  like i added a "flat LUT" or shooting in "cinestyle profile".
But when i add some curves, bring back the saturation the picture looks very good. And the Noise looks good, too!
(which is super important)

Instead of Cuves and saturation i can also add a simple "Linear to rec.709" LUT i found in the VFX LUTs Folder....
and it works almost perfect. The Image looks very good... and the noise, too.
Much much better as if i choose "Rec.709" in the "color space" directly.


So.. my current Workflow is:


A: Convert MLV to DNG using:
____"MLVViewer" works fine .. and "MLVMystic_v0.5" allways works fine!
____"raw2cdng" not working (no matter if 12bit or 16 bit .. Resolve is crashing)


B: At Resolve .. in "COLOR" Edit Mode.. simple choose CLIP (Decode Using) + COLOR Space = BMD Film + Gamma = BDM Film 4.6 K ...

C: Apply some "Linear to rec.709" LUT at starting point.



...

The image looks good.
But... am I doing something terrible wrong?

I also read this thread here:
DaVinci Resolve 12 and ML Raw
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=15801.0

And tried it:

1. Switch to "DaVinci YRGB Color Managed"
2. Alexa LogC for Timeline Colorspace
3. Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 for Output Colorspace

looks ok... but the "noise" looks not good.

In the thread it says:
"By selecting Bypass as the Output Colorspace option, you will
see your image in LogC Gamma and Alexa Wide Gamut.

When i do it... my image looks exacty the same... as if i simple chose
my method:
- "DaVinci YRGB" (Color Science Settings)
- In COLOR select: "Clip" .. and then select "BMD + BDM Film 4.6k" (Color Space + gama Options)



So... is the "DaVinci YRGB Color Managed" Method really important?
Or is my method also fine?

[jonathan.grevsen]

https://vimeo.com/67970827

[jonathan.grevsen]

You could use this lut after the BMD