Resolve 11 vs. AE CS6 - different "look" of noise

[Flocksock]

Hello,

I shoot some raw video with my Canon 60D at 1280 x 544 pixel.
I convert the MLV files with MlRawViewer Version 1.4.3 to get some DNG Files.
I open the dng files in AE CS6 .. and also tried DaVinci Resolve 11.

I noticed some difference when i open the DNG Files in DaVinci.
Have a look:

AE CS6 Version (good):



DaVinci Resolve Version (bad):


Resolve VS AE comparison (scale: 150%):



AE looks so much better. The "camera ISO noise" is much smaller than in the "Resolve" Version.
I tried different settings in Resolve (set everything up to high resoution) but
cannot fix that problem.

Its not only the noise... when you donwload both imges and switch between the two images
you will notice that the davince version is darker than the AE Version.. but i use the same color temperature,
gama, etc. (i did not change the gama at all). But the main problem is the noise.

[Flocksock]

another example:

[DeafEyeJedi]

In other words I also am glad that I wasn't the only one suspecting that DNG's do slightly come out darker in DR as oppose to AE -- Thanks for pointing this out @Flocksock and hopefully others will chime in as well.

*EDIT*

I also prefer the workflow in AE but as of lately I've been forcing myself to try and get used to DR12 because their rendering is so much faster and I'm also keen on learning the color grade fiasco that comes along with DR12 after spending years on ACR within AE which I also notice that noise comes slightly better than DR12 but then again sometimes I just am in awe of how much improvements have been made by Blackmagic in DR12.

[Flocksock]

I installed Davinci Resolve 12 .. and got the same issues:

LEFT = Adobe AE CS6.0
RIGHT = DaVinci Resolve 11 (12 looks the same)


Seetings:
- PC, Windows 7
- Canon 60D
- MLV size: 1280 x 544 pixel.
- Converted the MLV files with MlRawViewer Version 1.4.3 to DNG Files


The Image in "DaVince Resolve 11" is 5% darker. But the bigger problem is the noise.
In AE the "camera noise" (i used ISO 800 or 640) is much smaller. So the image is very clear.
In Davinci Resolve the "camera noise" is bigger.. and more colorfull. like some "blocky RGB Dots" ..
and so the whole image lost a lot of details. .. and the image looks more like "h264 Video" and less than "raw".

Please download these two files and switch between those two in your image viewer:

http://monostep.org/temp/raw_01_ae.jpg
http://monostep.org/temp/raw_02_resolve.jpg

You will see a huge different. I really want to use "Davinci" but i can`t.
I'm a filmmaker, no tech guy.

I ask myself what is the problem.
Is the Davinci RAW Converter so bad?
Are the dng files bad? is there another way to convert those MLV Files into "better dng" files.

Maybe i just missed a button in DaVinci Resolve. Am I the only one with that issue?
So many people are using DaVinci Resolve... maybe they never questioning the "noise"...
and shoot with 100 or 200 iso. but sometimes you want to shoot with 400, 800 iso
and i think its a huge different. (i allready said that) Hope to find a fix for that.

[cmccullum]

Did you make sure to turn all the noise reduction in acr off before comparing? ACR adds color noise reduction by default

[Flocksock]

In AE the "noise reduction slider" is at 25% .. i think. standard settings  (raw import options)
In DaVince Resolve .. the noise reduction slider is at 10. (standard settings)
I tried different settings... but Resolve allways looks like this.

if i got some time i will make some more
tests with different ISO, 200, 400, 800.

[hjfilmspeed]

Wait do you have the paid version of DR 12? The free version doesn't have NR. Also, ACR has better debayering for sure but at the cost of speed. That workflow is painfuly slow compared to DR. And I can confirm if you turn off all noise reduction especially color noise in ACR, it makes a big difference but it still seems to be a little cleaner then DR with no NR. Also Adobe has many many years in RAW image processing. But using that workflow is much slower then resolve.

[reddeercity]

@Flocksock Did you give MLVProducer a try? It's very ACR like even has "noise reductions"
mlvp.alpha.build1944  mlvp.alpha.build2127 . I haven't  tried build #2127 yet but 1944 build works fine

[DeafEyeJedi]

Well I only run on OS X and MLVProducer is a fine tool and works well under Wine on Mac's.

Don't forget how useful MLP & MLVFS are as well. [emoji6]

However, I shot this on 5D3 w 35L 1.4 (ISO 2000) & 16-35L 2.8 (ISO 3200) for my brothers bday on NYE and yes I was a bit drunk as well so excuse my racking.

Noise came out quite well DR12 in combined with Cinelog-C and few nodes of my own tweaks to make it pop (despite of how much I boosted up the shadows as well as honing down the highlights) even tho the sweet spot for 5D3 MLV RAW is practically @ ISO 800 but hey there are no rules in photography, right?

https://vimeo.com/150866001

Thanks for motivating me to get back into my old grooves within AE's workflow and will compare the noise to DR then since I am actually curious to see the results between those two softwares! [emoji106]

[Andy600]

It all comes down to the time you want to spend developing the image vs the quality you want to achieve. Resolve and ACR are different technologies with different debayering algorithms and each app has positives and negatives. ACR can rebuild 'some' non-existent highlight detail in clipped channels (effectively increasing available DR) while Resolve has a psuedo highlight recovery function which is basically a contrast boost at the top of the signal. ACR and most Adobe apps are ICC color managed while Resolve and most color grading apps use hard coded math.

In terms of noise, you can get very good results in Resolve using the Neat Video OFX plugin but Resolve will never 100% match ACR and vice versa - there is always a trade off somewhere. Then there is the difference in linearity between the apps. ACR default is display gamma (approx 1.15) vs approx 1.0 gamma in Resolve (YRGB) but both are still subtly different to Nuke, Fusion, Baselight, Scratch etc which are true linear and even then, the controls of each app behave differently and can/do render the same raw image differently.

[DeafEyeJedi]

and is this why OpenColorIO within AE is by far one of the most powerful plugin if not better than most fx out there, right?

[Flocksock]

I was a bit tired yesterday. i did not use any "noise reduction".
I use "standard" (default) sharpenig ... in AE which is 25% or something
and 10 in Resolve (sharpening) .. but no noise reduction.

i also tried MLVProducer... but got some problems with brightnes, color temperature, etc.
but its much cleaner than the DaVinci Resolve. More similar to "AE".

I know the Denoiser from Neat Video... and also use Denoiser in Nuke.
With RED Material... etc. And it works best when the "noise" is small and clear.
And when i shoot with 400 ISO... i don't care about the noise in the dark shadows... as
long its the "clear noise" i get in AE.

I don't want to reduce the noise. When i open dng files in Resolve i want the same noise-look i get in AE.
Thats all. Later that day, or the next days i will shoot some test footage with 800 or 1600 iso...
I want to get behind those things. ... how the"RAW Video Converter" works (interpretes Noise) in Resolve vs. AE.

[cpc]

Random image off the internet, showing AE default settings. Note the 25 under Color Noise Reduction (last slider):


Are you saying you explicitly set this to zero in the AE example?

[Flocksock]

I take some old footage and did some more tests.

AE CS6 vs Resolve 12


My Settings in AE CS6:


So i also did some noise reduction in AE... (i think those are the default settings)

EDIT: I will upload the "MLV" Files.. of the "night scene" so other people in this
forum can download an create own DNG Files. (uploading now... onto my server)

[Flocksock]

here are some DNG Files ... 1280x544 pixel - Iso1600 - Canon 60D:

NIGHT SCENE / FOG (Nebel)

http://monostep.org/temp/__Nebel_A_000000.dng
http://monostep.org/temp/__Nebel_A_000001.dng
http://monostep.org/temp/__Nebel_A_000002.dng
http://monostep.org/temp/__Nebel_A_000003.dng
http://monostep.org/temp/__Nebel_A_000004.dng
http://monostep.org/temp/__Nebel_A_000005.dng

[mothaibaphoto]

So, ACR has default 25% color noise reduction, while free version of DR has no either.
Why do you upload your files?

[Flocksock]

I uploaded it because i realy want to use "Resolve" instead of AE.
And maybe i'm just to dumb to click the right buttons in Resolve.
The difference between Resolve and AE is very big... and i don't think AE
got a better "noise reduction" Tool. (And i don't even use it (just the defaults))

I also got similar (good) results (like AE) in "MLVProducer".
So i don't know whats the problem with Davinci Resolve.
Of Course... ISO 1600 is to high. But even when i use 800 or 400...
the noise in Resolve" looks terrible (as you can see).

[Andy600]

Turn off everything in ACR i.e. all NR, sharpening, lens adjustments, CA fixes etc and turn off sharpening in Resolve then compare the images.

If you want cleaner images in Resolve you have 2 choices, either Resolve Studio with built-in NR ($999 or $499 if you're on OSX) or Neat Video OFX ($249) because ideally you want to do a NR pass while the images are still raw for better results.

Just an idea - have you tried running the resolve images/video through ACR as a plugin? (I've not tried it but it might let you use ACR NR this way). Neat Video is more flexible and produces better images than than Resolve, ACR or Nuke NR IMO so it's worth the purchase.

[Flocksock]

Than i got this (Sharpening / denoise set to ZERO):



the exposure is set to 0.5 (in AE and Resolve) but that is
the only thing i changed. If i set the exposure to 0.0 .. the image
in Resolve is stil darker than in AE. But its not only that its darker...
the "noise interpretation" is very different. And its also a problem when
usning Iso400 or 200.

[Andy600]

Just looked at the meta in one of your images and you used MLRawViewer? - if so it's a compressed DNG file and that will probably have some affect on noise, especially when debayering in Resolve. Have you still got the MLV files?

[Flocksock]

Yes i used the "MLRawViewer 1.4.3" to convert the MLV Files to DNG.
And Yes. I still got the MLV Files.
Any better/other tools to convert the MLV?!

EDIT: This is what the MLV file looks like in "mlvproducer".
(still better than DNG files in Davinci) and very similar to AE


(its a screenshot... so its a little bit scaled down. like 90%)
hmmmmmm.

[mothaibaphoto]

Your images are underexposed. This is why so much noise.

[Flocksock]

@mothaibaphoto: I know that.
I want to SEE the difference in the"noise". So i took extra "bad underexposed footage"
to have a detailed look at the noise.

But. If you take a look at this image (scroll down) its not underexposed:
http://monostep.org/temp/resolve_vs_ae.jpg

And i still got "ugly noise" in Resolve. Take a look at the green bowl... and the
missing details in the brush. its a huge different.

[mothaibaphoto]

They make ugly noise to encourage the sales of studio version This is what all the free versions about as everybody knows. This is conspiracy Regarding the image:
DR version has more shadows pulled out, and different WB (more warm) - this possibly explains the bowl issue, and sharpening can make that brish much better. I'm on DR since beta 2 of 12 version and made a lot of pixel peeping comparing what can I produce there with ACR. Yes, they are different and this is good. And finally I liked DR most. But noise is not issue for me.

[Flocksock]

Resolve more shadow pulled out? (hmmm. i don't see it)
And its 100% the same Color Temperature (as shoot). Did not move that slider.

As you can see in this image:


The green bowl is "warmer / (different)" in the Resolve version.
Same with the foggy night image. The "big Colored Noise Dots" in Resolve
makes everything feels a litte bit warmer

At the moment i upload the "foggy night.mlv" to google drive. It must be possible
to create a similar look with Resolve. At least a look that looks like the AE version
without any sharpening/noise reduction. Or a look i get with "mlvproducer".

At the moment i tried "raw2dcng" ..and converted some "16bit maximum dng" files.
Looks good in AE.. but Resolve crashes when i tried to open it.