Author Topic: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles  (Read 168762 times)

reddeercity

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2016, 07:34:12 AM »
some more information , http://www.similaar.com/foto/flaat-picture-styles/technical-tests-1.html
download link  http://www.similaar.com/foto/flaat-picture-styles/download.html
This looks very interesting I like the tests results , I'll have to give it a try.

edit:
Flaat Picture Styles: the long explanation ,  http://www.similaar.com/foto/flaat-picture-styles/long-1.html

Danne

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2016, 08:02:31 AM »
Why not test the reverse engineered logs we created here? Especially those versions with other canon color settings baked in like portrait, faithful, standard etc? As we keep all information open with pf3 format unlike most of the other flat pic styles we can all follow what,s going on and build upon the process.

Danne

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2016, 09:30:34 AM »
Think I got a version even closer to cinestyle here. Have look.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4tCJMlOYfirbzhEOVhCTUJIQ2M/view?usp=sharing

Cinestyle


new build


v.1.2


cinestyle


new build


v.1.2



ph2007

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #53 on: September 02, 2016, 01:24:16 PM »
I just play with clog more today with the 6D.

is possible the picture style affect camera codec?
I just find out the clog is more better to hold up details than any other picture styles

I have been used 6D quite some time, I know in this scenes the h264 in camera codec would not hold up the details no matter what I do.
please have a look here is the normal result I normally get
cinestyle graded no post sharpness:



but now have a look for the clog no post sharpness!



here is the full pic if anyone want check the differences.
http://ph-production.com/tmp/cine.jpg
http://ph-production.com/tmp/clog.jpg

it look more more better for me.
I shoot both these shoot is using all same setting and the camera on tripod. just changing the picture style between shoot.

I will do more testing next week to see how the clog behave.
btw the clog default is 1 sharpness in camera setting and the cine is at 0, will the 1 step made the a such differences?
If the clog profile really affect the details, then thats why canon holding up so long and not easy giving it to any of thier camera including the 5d4 and 1dx2? :o

Danne

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #54 on: September 02, 2016, 02:07:13 PM »
Turn off sharpness. Post results.
In camera sharpening not usable for filming.

dfort

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #55 on: September 02, 2016, 05:00:13 PM »
Think I got a version even closer to cinestyle here. Have look.

I checked it out on the DaVinci Resolve scopes and it looks like a closer match to CineStyle.

Packaged it up and posted v1.3.
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dfort

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #56 on: September 02, 2016, 07:24:06 PM »
If the clog profile really affect the details, then thats why canon holding up so long and not easy giving it to any of thier camera including the 5d4 and 1dx2? :o

Log is included in Canon's cinema line of cameras. The 1D X Mark II is very similar to the 1D C but the 1D X is for still photographers while the 1D C is part of the cinema line. The 1D C has a log picture style built in but the 1D X Mark II does not. Note that the log settings in professional cinema cameras are built into the firmware so you can't just copy Canon Log from a 1D C and install it on your camera.



I don't want to get into a long discussion about a camera that isn't supported by Magic Lantern but something interesting that I found in the manual is this showing the default settings for Canon Log on the 1D C.



Note that Saturation is set to 0, not the -2 recommended by Technicolor for CineStyle and used on several of the popular flat picture styles. I set the Saturation to -2 on the latest releases because I keep forgetting to switch it from 0 when installing CineStyle. Maybe we shouldn't be using -2? I'd like to see some comments on Saturation settings.

Danne and I are pleased with how well our picture style matches CineStyle. It isn't a perfect match but it is very close. Here is a shot of logNeutral with the DaVinci Technicolor CineStyle lut:



You can also create custom luts in Resolve. If you have a one of the standard color charts it can automagically create a fairly accurate lut.



Here is an interesting article on how to create a viewing lut for your on set monitor using this feature in Resolve:
http://www.matchstixstudios.com/blog/2015/12/10/how-to-create-your-own-custom-luts-in-under-5-minutes

The problem is that CineStyle isn't one of the "Source Gamma" settings so I just used "Auto." I applied it to images shot at Saturation 0 and -2 and it brought the colors closer together, though there is still a slight difference that is easily visible on the video scopes.

Of course all this is rather technical and the goal of shooting in log is to allow you more room to manipulate the image creatively in post.

We're using CineStyle as our gold standard for these picture styles because, hey it was developed by Technicolor, it supported by DaVinci Resolve, Cinelog-C and there are lots of luts for it that can be freely shared. At one point Technicolor had big plans for CineStyle including a special software for it like Color Assist but all this has since been abandoned. Yet CineStyle is still in wide use.

I'm sure a lot of work went into the new Canon DSLR C-Log as well as the flat picture styles like Marvel, Flatt, VisionColor and even Prolost Flat. Use whatever works best for you.
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Lars Steenhoff

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #57 on: September 02, 2016, 08:18:31 PM »
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153668741410426&substory_index=0&id=177852000425

philip bloom also writes about clog curve in a picture style, coming from miller, you can follow the discussion on facebook

dfort

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #58 on: September 02, 2016, 08:50:24 PM »
philip bloom also writes about clog curve in a picture style, coming from miller, you can follow the discussion on facebook

Yeah, I've seen that announcement but where can you get it? I can't find any information on where to download it, is it free, is it locked, etc.



Jumping off topic, can anyone verify that the Sigma 17-50 f2.8 has an EF and not an EF-S mount? This might make it a good choice for the 5D4 when shooting 4K (cropped).

[EDIT] Looks like only Canon makes EF-S mount lenses so that Sigma lens should fit on a 5D4.
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reddeercity

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2016, 02:20:48 AM »
Ok , Tried to load up the picture profile "pf3" on 5D2 and all I get is errors "can't be installed" but the "pf2" I have no problem at all.
If you try to just save it as a "pf2" you lose the Tone Map , so I spend a few hours trying to match the "logNeutral" I come close , looks not bad .
I used as CR2 file for calibration . I have the custom picture style in my Drop Box if anyone what try it out logNeutral_5DMrk2_v1.4
This all Started so I could do a HDMI Capture test with different picture style profiles install , first I used Canon Neutral then Canon Land Scape capture the uncompressed
60i HDMI stream to my AJA kona LHi first with ProRes 422HQ , then DPX 10BE RGB and of course internal ML H264 with constant bite rate of 2.3 over factory default .
The neutral PS was about 60Mb/s & the Landscape was 88 Mb/s @ 23.976p .
I'll also test Technicolor CineStyle , Flaat11, and C-log HTP

The other problem I had was you can not install picture style profile with ML running , had to use a non ML CF card to go forward , FYI

I post the result later on in a New thread , as this will take some time to complete .
 :)

dfort

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2016, 02:39:22 AM »
So pf3 files work with the 50D but not on the 5D2? Darn it. How are you loading the picture styles? I thought the only way was using the EOS Utility via a usb cable. It works even with no card in the camera.

I see you copied over the nodes to the "other" graph. I tried that too but it didn't match as close as we would like and it takes a long time to fiddle with the nodes to get things to line up.

I'm going on a vacation in a few days and will be AFK (away from keyboard) for about a month. I try to check up on this topic's progress but I'm not promising anything. In the meantime it seems that this is a pretty good CineStyle "like" picture style that works for most cameras except the one that CineStyle was originally developed on. Yeah, according the Technicolor website it was developed on the 5D2.
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reddeercity

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2016, 06:29:51 AM »
So pf3 files work with the 50D but not on the 5D2? Darn it. How are you loading the picture styles? I thought the only way was using the EOS Utility via a usb cable. It works even with no card in the camera.
yes I used the EOS Utility with the USB cable , didn't know you could load picture style without a card never tried that way before.
If the cam is booted up with magic lantern running the "Register User Defined Style" tab is grayed out.
Just tried to load pic. style without CF card and yes it works , retried to load up your PF3 and no Joy ! say it's the wrong version . :-\

I see you copied over the nodes to the "other" graph. I tried that too but it didn't match as close as we would like and it takes a long time to fiddle with the nodes to get things to line up.
Yea , it's not perfect I could spend more time on it . I seem to be off in the mid's a bite It seems I can't lower the saturation or it's too contrasty , I'll have to do more work on it.

I'm going on a vacation in a few days and will be AFK (away from keyboard) for about a month. I try to check up on this topic's progress but I'm not promising anything.
Have a great Vacation !


 

dfort

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2016, 07:30:30 AM »
Just tried to load pic. style without CF card and yes it works , retried to load up your PF3 and no Joy ! say it's the wrong version . :-\

Maybe it is the EOS Utility and not the camera?

Code: [Select]
Changes for EOS Utility 2.12.3 Updater :

Supports EOS-6D camera
Supports read-in of Picture Style files (.pf3) created in Picture Style Editor 1.12.2 and later


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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andy kh

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2016, 09:55:38 AM »
Yeah, I've seen that announcement but where can you get it? I can't find any information on where to download it, is it free, is it locked, etc


download link has not been provided by james miller yet. as of now nobody knows whether its going to be free or not
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Danne

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2016, 11:01:33 AM »
More important. How was it created and if done in primitive picture style editor it should be considered a mimic clog which of course could be more or less accurate depending on how much effort was put into it.

dfort

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2016, 04:41:32 PM »
@reddeercity

This is the EOS Utility version that I'm using. (2.14.20)



The reason I bring this up is because when I was working on the picture styles I switched to from an EOSM to a T5i (700D) as my test camera and I couldn't open up the CR2 files in Canon's Digital Picture Professional. It turns out that I had an older version that didn't support that camera.

I searched all over and can't find anything that specifically states that the 5D2 can't use pf3 files so I'm thinking it might be the EOS Utility--or the camera firmware.
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Danne

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2016, 07:18:30 PM »
@reddeercity.
Not sure, maybe helps. Didn,t check.
http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=17808.msg171753#msg171753

Kharak

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2016, 08:47:26 PM »
Not sure if i remember correctly, but a stupid mistake I've made lots of times with EOS utility is that the liveview must be off or something like that, in order for eos utility to work properly with PP.

Sure most of you know this, its just something I've been stuck with a couple of times when installing pp's
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reddeercity

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2016, 01:24:36 AM »
Found the problem I'm having

EOS_Untiliy_Ver_2.6.0.0
by RedDeerCityTV, on Flickr

I have the old EOS Utility software  ver. 2.6.0.0

I updated to EOS Utility 2 ver. 2.14.20.0

EOS_Utility_2_Ver_2.14.20.0
by RedDeerCityTV, on Flickr

Now I can install PF3 picture styles on the 5D2.

dfort

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2016, 02:06:32 AM »
Looks like we aren't the only ones reverse engineering log picture styles.

http://www.eoshd.com/2016/09/now-available-eoshd-picture-profiles-brings-c-log-canon-dslrs-including-1d-x-mark-ii-5d-mark-iv/

Quote
This is not an official Canon LOG profile but the difference in performance is minimal. I have for months been fine tuning the EOSHD C-LOG Picture Profile on my 1D C, so that all other Canon DSLRs can benefit from it as well. The only difference is that the official Canon 1D C LOG mode has a bit more latitude in the highlights, but they are VERY similar!

Log mode on the Canon 1D C is built into the firmware so you can't just copy it and install it on your Magic Lantern enabled camera.

Is isn't free and you can't open the .pf3 files in Canon's Picture Style Editor (editing is disabled) but it does come from Andrew Reid, author of the popular website, EOSHD. He's also including some interesting creative picture styles and luts in the package.
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Lars Steenhoff

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #70 on: September 04, 2016, 09:37:16 AM »
i dont like the fact that he is asking money for it, it would be more beneficial for the community to start working with an open profile and not a locked one that is payed.

otherwise why not just use cinestyle wich is locked and free.

Danne

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #71 on: September 04, 2016, 12:44:46 PM »
Every picture style around except cinestyle seems have been originally baked in picture style editor. The editor is way to crude creating any math based logs. If anybody knows any other way to build a curve than in this editor it would be interesting to know how.
On a side topic there is a dng profile editor from adobe which turn a dcp profile into 96 points. You can check this with open source program dcptools. Now this 96 points can be overriden with for instance dcptool and suddenly you can build a dcp profile with full log math it seems. Looking at tc maybe this is the deal here.

Kharak

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #72 on: September 04, 2016, 12:55:23 PM »
FYI: on the technicolor website, when cinestyle was first released, it said that their technicians spent one year developing the Profile in collaboration with Canon. I can not find this information anymore on their website.
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dfort

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #73 on: September 04, 2016, 11:27:51 PM »
i dont like the fact that he is asking money for it, it would be more beneficial for the community to start working with an open profile and not a locked one that is payed.

otherwise why not just use cinestyle wich is locked and free.

You make an interesting point. Some of us do need to make a living and what better than to make an income doing what you like to do. However, the EOSHD C-Log is reverse engineered from the log setting of the EOS 1D C so is it right to sell a copy of it? Artists have been copying works by the masters and selling them for ages but copyright laws are supposed to protect the original authors.

When Danne and I were deciding what to name our picture style we also debated whether we should put our names in the copyright field. We decided not to.

...their technicians spent one year developing the Profile in collaboration with Canon...

Another reason why we aren't copyrighting or selling our reverse engineered version of CineStyle.

So putting that discussion aside the EOSHD C-LOG picture profile is very interesting and hey, it is only $9.99 USD and it does come with a bunch of other picture styles and luts to play around with.

I'll be going on a month long trip and will be taking an EOSM which can double as a great little point and shoot camera or an almost fully featured Magic Lantern enabled monster. Here are the picture styles on my camera:



Note that the blue letters on the left column indicates the active picture style and the blue letters on right column indicates changes from the default settings. Neutral is set to the Prolost Flat settings, easy because you don't need to load the picture style with the EOS Utility. CineStyle has the default 0 Saturation changed to the recommended -2. Note an issue with the EOSHD C-LOG name on the Canon menu. Not a problem with the Magic Lantern menu.



Ok, we're at a good spot with reverse engineered CineStyle picture style--logNeutral. There's also the variations based on Canon standard picture styles, logStandard, logPortrait, logLandscape and logFaithful so there's plenty to play around with.

What's the next project? Probably not reverse engineering EOSHD C-LOG because it is already a reverse engineered picture style. Maybe make an original log picture style? Sounds like a new topic.
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ph2007

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #74 on: September 05, 2016, 10:11:56 PM »
how does the EOSHD C-Log compare to the free Clog? ;D