Author Topic: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?  (Read 12638 times)

ph2007

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5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« on: November 07, 2015, 07:38:42 AM »
Hi guys.

I am shooting wedding videos/photo mostly.

current setup was 6D + 550D combo

but I dislike the H264 compression when shooting a wide shoot with my Tokina 11-16.
It just too soft no matter what i did. (sharpening it in post, It just gave me a "cheap look" that i dont like)

now I am almost have a budget to upgrade my 6D to mkIII or a GH4

anyone can give some advise?

for mkIII: I like the image quality from raw, but longer processing time(might be trouble for SDE)
for GH4: I never try 4k yet, will the 4k h264 8bit  footage downscale to 1080, will give me a sharp wide shoot like the mkIII raw?

note: I can get sharp wide shoot using my 6D raw@1600 and upscale to 1080 (it still look ALOT better than the H264)
but the downside is, when you shoot wedding a 6-9sec raw is not long enough to cover the shoot I need, I will end up missing the shoot :(


Thanks!

mageye

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2015, 07:19:27 PM »
I am no expert, but I thought I would just give you my opinion based on my experience.

As for the GH4, I am not so sure, I think they recently bought out a V-Log workflow based on a LUT (or something along those lines). I am pretty sure though that it can not do RAW. That's about as much as I know!

It seems clear that you like the look of the RAW from the 6D, even though you are limited by the buffers on there. So you're getting limited frame size and amount of time recording.

So you have a 'taste' of the RAW thing. Well just imagine getting that same image quality, but not having to up-res the image. In fact the image will simply be better because you will have that extra resolution. If you get a decent enough CF card (they are affordable) you will also be able to record continuous at 1080p (and above in the zoom mode). So with the 5DmkIII you will get images that you already have a familiarity with.

My first camera was the 500D. For me it wasn't enough, so I bought a 5DmkII thinking that I would be able to produce high (cinema) quality video! (this was pre-ML!) I battled on using the H.264 and really struggled to get that to work for me - in any way. It always had that softness that is unavoidable with the H.264 recording.

So along came Magic Lantern and things changed dramatically. I can't imagine a world without RAW now and the level of control it gives you in post is just still kind of jaw dropping!!!

One of the things that became really annoying is the moire of the 5DmkII. It annoyed me enough to upgrade to the 5DmkIII. I bought it because I believe it will (just about) do the things that I will need it to do. A dynamic workhorse if you like!

As I think you will have the impression, I am a fan of Magic Lantern and the 5D Mark III and to me it's an (almost) perfect marriage. OK so the RAW workflow is not always the fastest but it depends on what you want really!

I.M.H.O ;)

P.S. Also bear in mind that 4K editing is pretty demanding in terms of computing power, and hard disk etc.
5DMKII | 500D | KOMPUTERBAY 32GB Professional 1000x |Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II | Samyang 35mm f/1.4 ED AS UMC | Canon EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 III | Zoom H2 (4CH. audio recorder) | Mac OS X 10.9.2 | Photoshop CC | After Effects CC | Final Cut Pro 7

DeafEyeJedi

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2015, 08:02:13 PM »
5D3 running 113 is godsend...

Hands down!
5D3.113 | 5D3.123 | EOSM.203 | 7D.203 | 70D.112 | 100D.101 | EOSM2.* | 50D.109

ph2007

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2015, 04:55:10 AM »
I am coming from CGI industry. (been working for 19years as 3D CGI VFX Composite artist)

I am very get to use to raw data.
Untill now even when I am shooting still photo, I always go RAW :)

If I go mkIII will I miss the 4k juices?
very though choice......


hjfilmspeed

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2015, 06:01:24 AM »
I honestly can't believe how good 5d3 RAW is. I've never used gh4 4k 8bit but there is more to an image then just resolution. Color and motion is HUDGE! I say
1content/framing
2 color
3 motion
4 dynamic range
5 resolution above 1080 ( for now anyways)

QuickHitRecord

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2015, 08:11:28 AM »
Properly graded raw from the 5D3 looks a lot nicer to my eye than anything I've seen from the GH4. But if sharpness if your main concern, the GH4 will probably give you a sharper image. Part of the appeal of Canon ML raw is its softness.

I'd be more concerned about file storage. If you're just shooting a few clips to create a wedding highlights video, raw is probably fine. But if you are doing a full-blown video with comprehensive coverage, you're going to fill up a lot of cards very quickly.
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Oswald

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2015, 09:56:26 AM »
Same little bit here. I have throught to upgrade to a7s or gh4. Now i have eos m, 22mm and other lenses. But i also really like the eos M raw even though it is only 720p.. I have around 2000 € availdable, so i have through just buying better glass  (ef glass) and later think later to upgrade body. Now i am going to upgrade tripods, etc.

 And also I am going to start filming amateur plays, so I'll be buying 3 eos m to film these. Eos M body right now is like bargain, it cost like 120e in ebay. :D
7D, EOS-M & 100D.100b ¶  Sigma 18-35mm, Canon 50mm F1.8, 22 STM, 8-48mm f1.0, 18-55 EF-M STM

ph2007

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2015, 03:31:34 AM »
Hmmm I just find out 5dmkII is able to record raw @1859 continuous

I think its a better upgrade for me?
It just upscale a little to 1920 (with 2:40 aspect ratio)
think the picture will still look fine? (my 6D upscale from 1600 still looks nice)

with this then I dont need to sell my 6D for mkIII
I can keep my 6D and 550D and another mkII..
what do you guys think?

reddeercity

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2015, 06:34:46 AM »
Good choice ,  The 5D2 is a very good camera being using ML on my 5D2 for over 2years now.
Depending on the Nightly Build & file format (MLV-ver2.0 or Raw-ver1.0) you use for a 5D Markii the max continuous resolution go all the way up to 1880x1058 @23.976 (RawVer1.0)
and 1872x936 @23.976 (MLV-Ver2.0+Audio) . In 3xcrop mode 2048x930 @23.976p (Raw-Ver1.0) 2048x872@23.976p+audio and not to mention Clean Uncompressed 8bit 422 60i HDMI output suitable for capture on a recorder.
This Only works with a 1000x of greater CF Card.

ph2007

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2015, 08:56:00 AM »
I think 5d2 is best choices for me :)

going to buy a ton of 64gb 1066x lexar cards

5d2 only single CF card slot as I remembered.
can the 64gb CF card boot ML? or I need smaller size like 32gb?

Walter Schulz

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2015, 09:02:28 AM »
If you insist using ML "classic" v2.3 instead of nightly builds you have to use 32 GB cards (or less) for install. For nightly builds there is no known limitation.

No size limit after preparing cam. If you mean "booting" as in "startup cam".

No RAW video recording in v2.3, though.

ph2007

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2015, 09:35:09 AM »
I am not familiar with 5d2 ML version yet.

yes I will be using nightly build (since 2.3 wont do raw)
mind to light me up some link?
which nightly build is better for raw?

Walter Schulz

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2015, 09:43:42 AM »
The one you find in Downloads -> Download nightly builds.

goldenchild9to5

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2015, 09:29:38 PM »
I really Love my 5D Mark III and not looking to upgrade anytime soon.  The images that I'm getting from it are awesome even, when shooting @ 720p RAW the images are soo.. filmic.  @ the current moment I don't really have the need for 4k resolution.  That color depth is key for me and the the extra dynamic range I'm getting is excellent. 

nlhenry1

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2015, 03:25:51 PM »
One of the weddings I shot this year was with a friend - I was shooting 5D mkiii raw (mlv) and he was shooting with a GH4. The overall 5D mkiii raw image, when post-processed correctly, blows the GH4 out of the water. He told me that he had to "water down" my images so that they would match the GH4 in the edit.

Storage space is definitely an issue though, even when shooting highlight style wedding films. I typically end up recording about 150 GB worth of footage for a 3-6 minute highlight film, and I try not to shoot much more than I actually need.

Also, you'll need to make sure that you do quite a bit of testing before you go to shoot a wedding. There are limitations to framerate / frame size that you need to be keenly aware of - if you venture outside those limitations, you're bound to miss a very important shot due to an automatically stopped recording.

If you do want to go the magic lantern raw route, I would recommend 5d mkiii over mkii. The down-sampling technique in the 5D iii is FAR better than the one used in the 5Dii (binning vs. line skipping), thus the 5Dii will have horrendous aliasing/moire unless you add the Mosaic VAF. The 1080P raw image from the 5d mkiii is moire/aliasing free for all practical purposes.

By the time you add a VAF to the 5Dii, you could have spent a few hundred more and gotten a used 5Diii with a superior image that doesn't require you to be taking a filter out every time you want to shoot high resolution stills.

DeafEyeJedi

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5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2015, 07:14:04 PM »
Perfectly well said @nlhenry1 and thanks for pointing out valuable pointers to those that are curious!
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LEVISDAVIS

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2015, 01:04:17 PM »
V-Log internal is worse than the originally built-in Natural picture profile. V-Log introduces banding. It brings up the shadows quite a lot and helps to get more consisyent results in different lighting. It truly works great for 10-bit 422 HQ external recording. However, V-Log is technically about a 7 - 80% IRE value. In other words, when you grade the footage in post, you are once again, essentially expanding your IRE back to 0-100%. Using an external recorder with LUTs built into the recording is about the only way you'll ever see the true nature of the GH4. At that point, your file sizes are massive in 4K 422 or 422 HQ.

After shooting in the GH4 for the past year, its an easy cam to work with. But it is water colors at best with just enough dynamic range to make you think "filmic." The 8-bit codec is great for Natural and Cine-D, but your pushing your luck on set not shooting Raw.

What I've learned from shooting Raw on the 5D3, 50D, 5D2, BMCC, and BMPCC is that the Canon's skin tones are so far beyond these "Shelf-Stocking" Sony sensors that finding the way into 90% of the market. The BMCC may have better Dynamic Range, but finding a beautiful "wedding look" is quite an art. The GH4 is using a Sony sensor, by the way.

When I first tested the Gh4, I sold off the 5D3 because of the easy-to-use work flow in adequate lighting... To process 4k, I've simply honed in on Open CL / Cuda Technology,  Intel I7 processors, and proper cooling designs. The GH4 edits in Premiere at 1/4 res on 2012 Macbook Retinas with NVidia graphics in real-time with no issues and a couple of LUTs on top to make the grade. The 5D3 is playing back in real-time in DaVinci Resolve 12 on the same system with a couple of nodes...

The 5D has high chroma Dynamic Range while the Sony sensor's have high luminance dynamic range. Dpending upon the look, the 5D3 is going to saturate the scene with so many millions of more accurate colors. And it will look amazing. The GH4 will attempt to show you all the highs and lows and even tweak the picture profile around to make you think Canon, but you are not going to get God-Send skin tones to the client without an external recording solution. Even then, the Canon has a higher bit depth, but the GH4 is a picture-taking video camera in the sense that it's freeze frames are perfect. However, motion takes 80% of the resolution away... Another reason to shoot for colors and not for the resolution.

Taking a step back, I am shooting on BMCC MFT with a speed booster in an attempt to hit record and have it record at every turn. It's a professional solution and has been a great combo of "Skin tones / Resolution." The BMCC now has a 2x Lossless compression too. The 2400 x 1350 Raw files are smaller than the 5D3 1920x1080. I believe that its only a 12 bit readout that gets unpacked to a 16 bit color space. Perhaps that's another reason to shoot native 14-bit on the Canon?

But look at the sensor size too. The GH4 and BMCC are easier to operate because the depth of field is completely different than the 5D3. With the 5D3 you may have to work harder on focus, but when its on, I'm confident the folks on camera will appreciate being separated from other subjects.

Versatility-wise, you'll be much more flexible with a 5D3 than a GH4 and a BMCC. But, how reliable and for how long are your takes? Both the GH4 and BMCC have no recording limits and reasonable codec choices for long-term capture. A 128 GB SDXC UH3 lasts for 2hrs and 51 minutes in 4K. The BMCC in Raw blows through 1hr and 33 minutes of Raw at 480GB. In my opinion, the Canon is so versital its worth changing out cards and actually being able to record at ISO 3200 and have wonderful results.
Levi S. Davis

ph2007

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2015, 06:28:02 PM »
@LEVISDAVIS
actually GH4 was my choices :)
the benefits from it just cover all the thing that I dont have (with 5d2 just same features as my 6D and 550D just better @raw)
the GH4 gave me:
-no record limit
-better audio
-60fps/96fps slow motion capability
-4k video
-better DOF with wide angle lens (which I wanted for a sharper wide shoots), better auto focus for video (no idea if its better than canon, but i think it should :)
-using same SD cards as my both cams (CF will cost me a ton :()
-lightweight (its perfect for the cam-tv CAME-single, its gona replace my steadycam rig. its so small and lightweight perfect for wedding!)
-etc

thats why I go for GH4 ;D

I ordered it last week, should be arrived soon.

ph2007

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2015, 11:43:27 PM »
Okay I just got my newly GH4.

tested out cinelikeD profile @4k. the noise is not noticeable on pc monitor (not even on my 4k monitor)
but very noticeable when viewing on TV :(
need very heavy noise reduction leads to the extremely long render time.

even my 550d noise is cleaner. sharpness GH4 still very beats out 550D or 6D :)

I think a7sII is the way to go @@  is budget is allowed.

kkfok1031

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2015, 08:22:24 AM »
How about a used EOS-1D C? I bought mine at $4600 only.

ph2007

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Re: 5dmkIII 1080p raw or GH4 4k 8bit for wedding?
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2015, 04:08:41 PM »
In my country 1Dc is very rare on sell for used.
the price is 3x of my GH4 with just body only. @@ (not counting the needs of CF cards)

way far from what I can affort :(

how do you compared it to a7s2?
think a7s2 still wins by lowlight?