Author Topic: 1920x720 in Raw or 1920x1080 in H.264 ?  (Read 5006 times)

juliusE

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1920x720 in Raw or 1920x1080 in H.264 ?
« on: July 27, 2015, 09:40:58 PM »
Hello Magic Lantern folks
Thanks so much for all the help you can find here.

Im shooting a Short film in the next month using a 5D3.
I'm shooting onto a 800X lexar CF card which is unfortunately not fast enough for shooting 1920x1080 in RAW.
But if I turn the resolution down to 1280x720 and shoot in raw, it works flawless even with my 800x card.
Now my question is if someone would let me know what they would decide for shooting;
should I stick to RAW with the lower resolution 1280x720 ((also having to deal with the more complicated raw post workflow later)), or should I go back to shooting in H.264 with a 1920x1080 resolution?
I'm basically trying to figure out what the highest quality picture would be? - what I loose by having to turn the resolution down to 1280x720 if I choose RAW. (I can already see i loose a lot in terms of the capability of my lens)

(ps: I dont have more cash to buy a faster CF card)

I Hope someone understand my question and will take their time to let me know their opinion or experience. 

ansius

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Re: 1920x720 in Raw or 1920x1080 in H.264 ?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2015, 10:07:00 PM »
I think that you already somewhat have the answer for you question, shoot in 1920x1080 h264.

+) RAW has benefits in dynamic range and color detail.

-) RAW is rather cumbersome workflow, and I'm not that sure you would really benefit form it (you would not ask the question, if you know that you for sure would)

?) is everything else up to spec? enough storage, fast enough computer to edit with. what's about dailies? It is not only a question of format but a whole workflow an philosophy.

I gather that you have only one 800x card? how then you can shoot without having a break every half an hour to download the footage?

I would just shoot in a flat profile and ramp up the bit rate for h264. but check every clip in play on camera, because few times it did not ramp it up, but down on my 7D. with my 400x cards I can go 1.3-1.5x stable, and there is a notable difference in finer detail.

Remember - what ever the short the film is about, it is first about the story and how well you can tell it, gear is secondary. Think of the workflow, witch one would help and witch one would hinder it?
Canon EOS 7D & 40D, EF-S 17-85mm IS USM, EF 28-300mm IS USM, Mir-20, Mir-1, Helios 44-5, Zenitar ME1, Industar 50-2, Industar 61L/Z-MC, Jupiter 37A, TAIR-3
http://www.ansius.lv http://ansius.500px.com

juliusE

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Re: 1920x720 in Raw or 1920x1080 in H.264 ?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2015, 10:41:28 PM »
I think that you already somewhat have the answer for you question, shoot in 1920x1080 h264.

+) RAW has benefits in dynamic range and color detail.

-) RAW is rather cumbersome workflow, and I'm not that sure you would really benefit form it (you would not ask the question, if you know that you for sure would)

?) is everything else up to spec? enough storage, fast enough computer to edit with. what's about dailies? It is not only a question of format but a whole workflow an philosophy.

I gather that you have only one 800x card? how then you can shoot without having a break every half an hour to download the footage?

I would just shoot in a flat profile and ramp up the bit rate for h264. but check every clip in play on camera, because few times it did not ramp it up, but down on my 7D. with my 400x cards I can go 1.3-1.5x stable, and there is a notable difference in finer detail.

Remember - what ever the short the film is about, it is first about the story and how well you can tell it, gear is secondary. Think of the workflow, witch one would help and witch one would hinder it?


Ansius, thanks you so much for your reply!
that was exactly the sort of reply I was looking and it warms my heart that there a people out there willing to help.
 
The quality or beauty of the picture is a big part of my storytelling as I'm shooting alot of nature shots and very 'quiet' panning shots with no people - therefore i've been looking into how I you can get this with this gear I was able to borrow. But I think you are right and make a good point saying that even asking the question is the answer - shooting in h264 is probably the way for me this time.
and yes about the specs - no i probably don't have suited post gear for shooting this film in RAW.

If you would let me know or sent a link of how to ramp up the bit rate though, I would be grateful! ( this is something I thought of aswell as a good solution for a bit better quality )
at the moment my magic latern bit rate setting says: load h.264.ini... and then if i press it: file not found...

sorry I'm new to all this

thanks so much !

Levas

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Re: 1920x720 in Raw or 1920x1080 in H.264 ?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2015, 11:57:43 PM »
You say you're using a 5d mark iii.
As far as I know the 5d3 has the 'ALL-i' recording option.
ALL-i is still h.264 codec but it saves all frames totally, the whole frame, not just moving parts between frames.
ALL-i is 90Mbit/s can't imagine that it needs cranking up?
The 7d doesn't have the ALL-i  option I think, so a 7d could benefit with cranking up the bitrate.

ansius

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Re: 1920x720 in Raw or 1920x1080 in H.264 ?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2015, 10:15:58 AM »
that's right 5Dmk3 has All-I so you should use that and you will be fine, 7D doesn't, and there is clear benefit of ramping up. I do not own 5Dmk3 so I can't prepare the tutorial for that, tough I have shot with that camera many times and it is really good. Footage feels softer (because of pixel binding, tough no moire then), but you can sharpen it well.
Canon EOS 7D & 40D, EF-S 17-85mm IS USM, EF 28-300mm IS USM, Mir-20, Mir-1, Helios 44-5, Zenitar ME1, Industar 50-2, Industar 61L/Z-MC, Jupiter 37A, TAIR-3
http://www.ansius.lv http://ansius.500px.com

juliusE

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Re: 1920x720 in Raw or 1920x1080 in H.264 ?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2015, 01:15:49 PM »
Thanks to you both.

I'm more calm about shooting in h264 now. But I'm still very interested in raw , and the idea that it's the closest digital equivalent to real film .. :: A clean uncompressed picture , closer to what the eye itself sees... And the senser :) .
Looking at  different comparisments between Raw and h64, its quite scary too see how unrealistic the colors on the compressed picture looks,, Where Raw really captures all the nice and specific real color and shadow nuances.
I've graded h264 shorts, and know you can compensate for the compression. But it's just such a sad way to work. And I'm actually still wondering , a little,  if I can get the stunning picture I'm looking for for this short film with h264.
Maybe I should see if I can find some money for a cf card ,
Borrow a hardrive to store it And see it as a learning challenge to try to shoot this one in raw ...

Thanks
J


ansius

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Re: 1920x720 in Raw or 1920x1080 in H.264 ?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2015, 05:47:48 PM »
newer pick up a serious job without experimenting on a new workflow, you will hit kinks and hiccups and then it will cost you much more, than experimenting before.

as for grading, use flat picture profiles, like TechnicolorCinestyle or MarvelsAdvanced. I will not go in to detailed fight between both, but I prefer Marvels for day to day work, and Cinestyle when I have to mix DSLR footage with pro video cameras. Make sure that you expose well, ETTR is recomended. Get the x-rite color passport, or at least something similar, if you will have it before every shoot or together with slate editor will be much happier, or you will have less work for your self.
Canon EOS 7D & 40D, EF-S 17-85mm IS USM, EF 28-300mm IS USM, Mir-20, Mir-1, Helios 44-5, Zenitar ME1, Industar 50-2, Industar 61L/Z-MC, Jupiter 37A, TAIR-3
http://www.ansius.lv http://ansius.500px.com