Author Topic: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!  (Read 11210 times)

_OLLE_

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600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« on: July 25, 2015, 12:32:22 AM »
Hi, first I would say that I really enjoy your work with the Magic Lantern and I am a big supporter of ML. I have a Canon 600d and I have had magic lantern on the camera in a month now and it works perfect. But I have some serious problems with raw record! I can actually record raw at 1728 resolution in 10 seconds but when I import the files to my computer I get really disappointed because on my raw files there is very much of  “aliasing artifacts from horizontal lines of pixels being skipped” I have talked with a ML user and he said just that. I have tried all things to get it working, I have tried to shoot in 720p and 1080p mode, different resolutions, both PAL and NTSC, MLRawviewer, Rawmagic and MLVFS and nothing will fix my issue. I really really want to get raw record to work because it opens much more doors otherwise the 600ds video capabilities is not that good! I have seen a lot of good raw videos with the 600d but I don't understand why just my 600d not will work! So can you guys in any way help me with my problem? I would be so thankful!

Down here I send you a picture so you easy can see what I mean!



Best regards from Olle 17 years old from Sweden 

Audionut

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2015, 07:34:32 AM »
Crop mode   :)

Oh, and double posting your questions throughout the forums is bound to break something.  ;)

_OLLE_

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2015, 12:11:24 PM »
But how do I do that? and will not the picture when get much more in zoomed? I want to keep it at 18mm!
is there anything wrong with just my camera, or why does it not work as usual?

Audionut

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2015, 02:24:00 PM »
But how do I do that?

Press the zoom button once.

and will not the picture when get much more in zoomed?

Yes.

I want to keep it at 18mm!

Don't zoom, or get a wider lens that equates to 18mm when zommed.


is there anything wrong with just my camera, or why does it not work as usual?

At 1:1 (no zoom), the camera discards lines of resolution.  No ifs, buts, maybes, workarounds, magic pixie dust or rainbow unicorns will change that.  It is this discarding of resolution that creates issues regarding aliasing.

When you enable crop mode, the camera samples the sensor without any discarding of resolution, so hence, no aliasing issues.

DeafEyeJedi

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2015, 06:34:14 PM »
Perhaps get a Nikkor 6mm 2.8 fisheye lens and use 3x crop mode which would give you slightly 18mm...

But not sure how that would look and it may be worth to look into.

And that's if you can fork out about $27k for that rare piece of glass.
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mothaibaphoto

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2015, 06:43:55 PM »
One more option:
http://www.mosaicengineering.com/products/vaf/txi.html
at least, much cheaper than than that fisheye  :D

DeafEyeJedi

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2015, 07:14:52 PM »
It was a joke, actually.

VAF may help reduce it but then it would make the image a bit softer -- according to the link you provided which shows images and videos of the differences. You can clearly see the differences and does it help, yes it does but not in a way that I think it pleases the eye as much as many of us would like.

It's your camera. Your call!

Check out the 8mm lenses from Rokinon since their prices are reasonable -- Good Luck!
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Levas

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2015, 07:45:46 PM »
There's nothing wrong with your camera.
The aliasing due to lineskipping is very common with wide angle lenses.

What works for me is photosoftware  rawtherapee.
I load the DNG's in rawtherapee and use LMMSE demosaicing and the defringe option.
You can tweak the defringe part to become sensitive for more colors then only purple.

In your example of the house, you can add orange and blue to the defringe part.


_OLLE_

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2015, 08:26:44 PM »
Thanks for all your replys! and excuse for my bad english! :-[ But for me the the crop mode is not an alternative! I shot a lot of actionsports with glidecam and crop mode is too inzoomed! Here is a video that is'nt shot in crop mode with the t3i/600d and there is no problems! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6gM9zMfJi8 So I don't understand why just my camera creates so much of aliasing artifacts! Maybe I need a better lens with better glass? now I have the kit lins 18-55mm! So the only way to fix this is post production or buy a better camera?

Levas

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2015, 09:35:29 PM »
You don't need better glass, actually you need more worse glass.
Sharper lenses=more chance aliasing happens.

More expensive camera won't help you here, unless you buy the 5d mark III.
5d mark III is the only one that doesn't do lineskipping.
All the others use lineskipping and have identical aliasing isseus.

If aliasing will happen also depends on the scene, probably the beach is perfect for
 getting alias free footage.

You can get rid if most aliasing in post. There is a 'trick' you can do in most video editors, also in davinci resolve. You have to separate your videoclip in 2 layers, one chroma and one luma layer.
You can then blur the chroma layer a bit and compose the 2 layers back together. This way the color aliasing is much less.


Levas

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2015, 09:41:23 PM »
Maybe you can upload a few dng's with much aliasing?
I can show you how much you can fix them in post.

_OLLE_

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2015, 11:20:30 PM »
Thanks a lot! Now I starts to understand this! :D :'( But how do I upload files to forum, I am new on the forum so I don't know!

Levas

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2015, 11:27:55 PM »
you can't upload files to the forum, you can use google drive, dropbox or whatever file sharing service and post the weblink to the files here in the forum.

_OLLE_

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2015, 11:49:40 PM »
Does this works? https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2mDAyOt5Qr0Z29qYl92QWFvbkU/view and https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2mDAyOt5Qr0UnIwU2VpREJPWVU/view It is not that much in the first but you will see it around leaves!

Levas

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2015, 09:51:27 AM »
The links are good, I downloaded both files.
I'll edit them and post back the results in this forum.

Levas

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2015, 10:34:59 AM »
I edited both dng's in RawTherapee.
I exported them as jpg and 16bit TIFF files, normally I export them as 8 or 16 bit TIFF and load the TIFF's in DaVinci Resolve Lite for further editing.

Here is the link
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1BxGc3dfMDafnBoclhWQ0tNTUZJRGo2UjNBNU1YOUpZdEo5eUwxRlJNUHJIZlRYSTNCQ3c&usp=sharing


Seems like google drive doesn't like 16bit tiffs, the thumbnails look messed up.


Levas

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2015, 10:55:13 AM »
DaVinci Resolve Lite works best for upscaling to 1920 wide.
I uploaded same jpg and tiff examples, upscaled by resolve to 1920x480 resolution. (In the same google drive folder link as in the post above)
Not that bad is it  ;D 8)

So it's not your camera, it's how you handle the dng's in post.
You know what they say, "we will fix that in post"

_OLLE_

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2015, 01:10:45 PM »
DaVinci Resolve Lite works best for upscaling to 1920 wide.
I uploaded same jpg and tiff examples, upscaled by resolve to 1920x480 resolution. (In the same google drive folder link as in the post above)
Not that bad is it  ;D 8)

So it's not your camera, it's how you handle the dng's in post.
You know what they say, "we will fix that in post"


Sorry for my bad responding I have been on a vacation without internet. The dngs looks much better now! Thanks alot for that. Levas! You said that you used rawtherapee, so could you tell me a little bit about the workflow and what you have done with the dngs? With the rawtherapee can you edit all the dngs in a specific folder on the same time? I prefer to keep the dngs as dngs and then upscale and edit in premiere pro cc! Thanks alot for your help Levas!

Levas

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2015, 10:12:10 PM »
My workflow is in this topic:
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=12708.msg123310#msg123310

By the dng's with the white house I neededthe defringe tool, which is on the same tab as sharpness and denoise and stuff. You can also make the defringe tool remove other colors then purple.

Andy600

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2015, 12:02:26 AM »
@_OLLE_ Resolve will take care of the moire (the color issues) very easily but you will not get rid of aliasing (stepping artifacts) caused by lineskipping. You can however get good, useable results if you control the depth of field a little and think about what in the scene 'might' cause issues.

Moire is a relatively simple fix in Resolve (V10 onwards). Just select YUV or LAB as the colorspace on the first node and untick channel 1 - this will mean any changes made on that node will only affect the color channels - then simply add blur until the moire disappears. You will lose some saturation but this can be added back in the next node. I prefer to add saturation back in Lab colorspace - i.e. add another node and set it to Lab colorspace, disable channel 1 (luminance) and then add contrast to the node to push the color channels apart.

Aliasing caused by line skipping is very much harder to control (I would say, impossible) so you should be thinking of ways to minimize it.

Your shots look focused to infinity. This is ok for landscape stills where you will shoot at the full resolution of the sensor but you will rarely see any movie using such a deep depth of field for anything other than establishing shots. I guess you shot at F16 - F22 or something!? - try setting your aperture to 5.6 or lower (F2.8 is a nice look on a crop sensor) and use a variable ND to reduce the light and obtain a good exposure. This will defocus the background or foreground sufficiently to avoid moire and aliasing issues and allow you to focus the viewers attention on something specific in the scene (sorry if you already know this basic stuff).

Then all you need to worry about is making sure the in-focus part of the shot has nothing that will invoke aliasing or moire. Fine patterns will cause moire and straight lines cause aliasing so avoid patterned fabrics, powerlines, brick walls - just experiment and you'll build up some valuable knowledge of when and how these problems occur - and when they do, either adjust the shot content, framing, DOF etc or don't hit record.

Anyway, here's your 2 shots that I put though Resolve 12 - took less than 10 seconds to sort the moire - even at default settings without any chroma blur added it is very good but these jpegs use the method I described above.

http://we.tl/mmJKJ89pj4


edit: The aspect ratio looked a bit squashed so, assuming it's shot with 720p selected I've scaled the vertical resolution by 1.67x - also, you can slightly reduce the appearance of jaggies if you add a little blur to the luminance channel of another Lab node (untick channels 2&3) then add a normal RGB node and apply some mist (also in the blur and sharpening panel) - it's not amazing but it might rescue some shots at the expense of a little detail - this can also be useful for matching the more detailed resolution of raw shots with H.264 video by simulating some of the downsampling effect of H.264 encoding - but sadly it can't work the other way around.

http://we.tl/VtAP9sXM4H
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Levas

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2015, 10:09:07 AM »
Wow, I didn't know the easy way to do this chroma blur in resolve, I started with resolve 9 and knew about chroma blur to remove color moire.
That was with blending 2 layers, where you removed saturation in one node and the brightness value in the other node.
(I didn't use it that much because it introduced to much color mixture around edges, I got people with red lining around skin and stuff  :P)
But this colorspace change and just click off one channel is really quick and works very well. Until know I haven't seen the color lining around objects that obvious as back then in Resolve 9.
So or this works way cleaner then the blending 2 nodes way, or Resolve has got much better since then.

I use Resolve Lite 11 at the moment, but the workflow Andy describes comes really close to the RawTherapee results. And it's way faster.
Thanks :D



_OLLE_

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2015, 06:19:41 PM »
@_OLLE_ Resolve will take care of the moire (the color issues) very easily but you will not get rid of aliasing (stepping artifacts) caused by lineskipping. You can however get good, useable results if you control the depth of field a little and think about what in the scene 'might' cause issues.

Moire is a relatively simple fix in Resolve (V10 onwards). Just select YUV or LAB as the colorspace on the first node and untick channel 1 - this will mean any changes made on that node will only affect the color channels - then simply add blur until the moire disappears. You will lose some saturation but this can be added back in the next node. I prefer to add saturation back in Lab colorspace - i.e. add another node and set it to Lab colorspace, disable channel 1 (luminance) and then add contrast to the node to push the color channels apart.

Aliasing caused by line skipping is very much harder to control (I would say, impossible) so you should be thinking of ways to minimize it.

Your shots look focused to infinity. This is ok for landscape stills where you will shoot at the full resolution of the sensor but you will rarely see any movie using such a deep depth of field for anything other than establishing shots. I guess you shot at F16 - F22 or something!? - try setting your aperture to 5.6 or lower (F2.8 is a nice look on a crop sensor) and use a variable ND to reduce the light and obtain a good exposure. This will defocus the background or foreground sufficiently to avoid moire and aliasing issues and allow you to focus the viewers attention on something specific in the scene (sorry if you already know this basic stuff).

Then all you need to worry about is making sure the in-focus part of the shot has nothing that will invoke aliasing or moire. Fine patterns will cause moire and straight lines cause aliasing so avoid patterned fabrics, powerlines, brick walls - just experiment and you'll build up some valuable knowledge of when and how these problems occur - and when they do, either adjust the shot content, framing, DOF etc or don't hit record.

Anyway, here's your 2 shots that I put though Resolve 12 - took less than 10 seconds to sort the moire - even at default settings without any chroma blur added it is very good but these jpegs use the method I described above.

http://we.tl/mmJKJ89pj4


edit: The aspect ratio looked a bit squashed so, assuming it's shot with 720p selected I've scaled the vertical resolution by 1.67x - also, you can slightly reduce the appearance of jaggies if you add a little blur to the luminance channel of another Lab node (untick channels 2&3) then add a normal RGB node and apply some mist (also in the blur and sharpening panel) - it's not amazing but it might rescue some shots at the expense of a little detail - this can also be useful for matching the more detailed resolution of raw shots with H.264 video by simulating some of the downsampling effect of H.264 encoding - but sadly it can't work the other way around.

http://we.tl/VtAP9sXM4H

Wow, I didn't know the easy way to do this chroma blur in resolve, I started with resolve 9 and knew about chroma blur to remove color moire.
That was with blending 2 layers, where you removed saturation in one node and the brightness value in the other node.
(I didn't use it that much because it introduced to much color mixture around edges, I got people with red lining around skin and stuff  :P)
But this colorspace change and just click off one channel is really quick and works very well. Until know I haven't seen the color lining around objects that obvious as back then in Resolve 9.
So or this works way cleaner then the blending 2 nodes way, or Resolve has got much better since then.

I use Resolve Lite 11 at the moment, but the workflow Andy describes comes really close to the RawTherapee results. And it's way faster.
Thanks :D




Thanks again for your good supporting and excuse me for my bad responing! :-[ If i understood this right is the colored areas, that are like flimering called moire and alising is more like this guy shows in the video? link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqi0114mwtY Nice to hear that the moire is relativly simple to fix because I think that it is the moire that annoys me most. The thing is that I never have used Resolve before and I got a little bit confused about what you are talking about because of that. I know that you can download Resolve for free but does this method work in the lite version? Is there any tutorial out there that shows this kind of working in Resolve? And when I add blur to the footage does that effect the sharpness? And at last I have one more question, If you look at my footage after you have fixed it, how bad is it? Is it better then 1080p h264?

Levas

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2015, 11:23:38 AM »
@_OLLE_

Yes this color moire fix also works in Resolve lite. There are a lot of tutorials out there on youtube on how to use Davinci resolve (the lite versions isn't much different from the non-lite version, so most tutorials will do).
The color moire fix is easy once you know the basics in resolve, you load your dng sequences in resolve in the MEDIA tab, put them on a timeline in the EDIT tab and then go to the COLOR tab, where all color grading/fixing is done. To remove the color moire, you can right click on a clip node(in the window in the upper right) and then change colorspace to YUV or LAB and after that another right click on the node to disable channel 1. Channel one in YUV and LAB space is only the luma/brightness channel, there is no color info in channel 1.
Now in the center window in the bottom go to the blur tab and pull those red-green-blue radius sliders up to about .75 which is most of the time enough to remove the color moire.
In the DELIVER tab you can output your project in many formats, like mp4.

Levas

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Re: 600d serious raw problem! plz help!
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2015, 11:26:44 AM »
If it looks better then standard 1080p h.264 is up to you  :)
Try it out yourself go pixel peeping.