Heavy vertical banding Noise removal? ACR vs Neat Video or both etc.

[Terry Tibbs]

Ok so the first thing I notice upon viewing my first 5D RAW footage is that it's noisy as hell. I gather that this is due to the incamera noise reduction not being used.

As a photographer, my experience is that the ACR noise reduction is excellent. I don't have a lot of experience with Neat Video, but I'm told it's also very handy.

Does anyone have any advice, or a workflow that suits them?

Wondering if a mixture of both might be good, ie a gentle ACR noise red followed by more specific treatment with neat Video.

Thoughts?

EDIT:

Here's a pic that illustrates what I'm talking about. Some pretty savage vertical kind of banding noise. (I'm still not entirely sure if I used the correct render output in OpencolourIO and AE. In OpenColourIO I used Cinelog-C, and in AE the output render was at DNxHD444.

The noise can be removed I'm sure. Plus the contrast will be a lot different after adding an LUT.

If you scroll across to the right on the image you can see the vertical lines...

F2, iso 1000....

EDIT: Does the way you export from RAW2CDNG make any difference? I exported 16bit maximized. It's just that the footage seems unusually noisy for iso 1000....



Terry Tibbs.

[Terry Tibbs]

Talk to me. Russian Fireplaces?

[cpc]

This type of noise is normal for underexposed footage. There simply isn't enough light fed to the sensor for proper clean darks. Furthermore, the noise is very visible here because your blacks are lifted with the log-ish profile; this also lifts the noise and makes it more apparent.

Neat Video will help a bit, but will soften the image. Better play with ACR's noise reduction first and see where it gets you. But the best you can do is pull black down to hide the noise. You will need to pull it down in correction anyway, because its too high for a proper image.

It is already too late, ofc, but as a general guideline: in low light scenes it is better to raise the ISO in camera in order to bring the image up. With 5dm3 raw iso 1600 is fine, 3200 is useable.

[Danne]

Yes,  ettr(expose to the right) is key when working with canon sensors. Making 1600 iso fully usable as cpc stated.

[Levas]

Just 'crush' the shadows in post

[Levas]

Just 'crush' the shadows in post

[Levas]

Just 'crush' the shadows in post
What also works for me, I made darkframes for the higher isos like 3200 and 6400
I recorded a few seconds MLV file with the same settings and lenscap on.
Used command line option in mlv_dump for averaging all the frames in the mlv and used the resulting frame for dark frame substraction on the normal videoframes.

[Terry Tibbs]

Yeah, after some ACR noise reduction and the Film Convert LUT it looks better. Was shocked at the level of noise though. Like I said, I was only shooting at iso 1000, let alone 1600 or 3200.

Looks better now: (Doesn't look this noisy when watching actual video footage and is converted to jpeg in the upload):

[Danne]

Iso 100 will give more noise than iso 1600 if underexposed..

[Terry Tibbs]

Hey Danne. Thanks! Yeah, when I'm photographing weddings etc I usually expose to the right a little then bring it down a half stop or so and a lot of the noise disappears. What I didn't factor into this equation I think was that C-Log lifts all the shadows. What looked right on the monitor wasn't going to be how it looked in C-Log! Guess there's a way of monitoring for this. Haven't sussed that bit out yet!

[Danne]

I understand. I think the optimal log would be one that care for ettr. Not saying this is the case here. I don,t really know. I,m working on 3d luts like that a lot. Bring signal back rather than pushing. Have to talk to Andy600 about a cinelog_ettr version . Let,s see what he has to say.

[Terry Tibbs]

Actually yeah he did mention something about ettr to me in an email. Unfortunately I'm no DP and I had a ton of things to worry about such as sucker mounts and lights etc. I did my best, but I didn't manage to use colour charts or ettr. I guess ettr would have been the way to do it as you suggest.

I know it's off topic but on a side note while I seem to have someone's attention you don't happen to know my best export settings in AE? I'm on PC and have tried DNxHD 444. Guessing this is best although I see there is DNxHD 185....

Thanks. It's all I need to know now I think.....

[Danne]

Go for highest if you have the hard drive space. Not very familiar with dxnhd. THink they can go pretty high320mb or so?  Also some new updated dxnhd format to check out. Probably google is the better bet in this case.

[Levas]

For right exposure for video, the on display ML raw histogram is a good tool
For highest quality you nee the one with all the 4s in it.
185 has something to do with tv standard, maybe gamma 1.85?

EDIT: Oh wait 185 stands for the bitrate...

[Terry Tibbs]

Awesome chaps. DNxHD 444 it is then. I tried google but couldn't find anything.

Winning!

[Andy600]

Ok, a few comments regarding exposure, noise, Cinelog etc

First and perhaps most importantly, you don't expose for Cinelog as it is a post-applied transform of the linear raw signal (whatever the linear signal is). When shooting ML Raw you should always use raw metering, not the Canon default RGB meters (the settings are in the ML menu).

ETTR is a good method for 'most' shots but I would not recommend it for the image in your original post nor most night, low light or HDR shots in general. The light in the lower left of the frame will significantly saturate the sensor so that an ETTR exposure (using the raw meters) will force the important mids further down towards the noise floor. In a low light shot like this I would expose for the actors with a wide aperture and high ISO (up to 1600 on the 5D Mark III). The light will clip a little but this can be rolled off (soft clipped) using curves.

re: codecs - Cinelog-C (the OCIO part) acts like a compressor and is capable of squeezing the debayered linear signal's RGB values and DR for rendering to a 10bit space without being affected by ICC gamut mapping. If you rendered the sRGB signal (even cinelog v3.0) without the Cinelog-C gamut transform you risk clipping or shifting RGB pixel values. I recommend using the highest chroma subsampling that you have storage capacity for. The absolute minimum requirement for the Cinelog-C signal is 10bit 4:2:2 but 4:4:4 will allow you to do extreme grades to the same level as working directly with the raw files. If you have the latest AVID codec pack your should have DNxHR which is the PC equivalent of ProRes.

re: noise reduction - obviously, a better exposure is the first thing to try but ACR NR will usually suffice but Neatvideo can be added to the mix for stubborn FPN (try increasing the temporal filters if it's FPN)

re: relevant exposure levels between the C300 and Cinelog. C300 Canon log is an algorithm that changes depending on the selected exposure index - this is important for in-camera log recording. With MLRaw we have a linear raw signal to play with and, although it's possible to replicate EI linked transforms (i.e. many variations of the log curve), it is generally considered to be overkill when processing raw images outside of the camera and to use a single, optimum transfer function (usually the one linked to the camera's native ISO) - this is why Alexa Log-C, if/when used in post production, is actually Log-C EI800.

Cinelog works in conjunction with ACR's sRGB ICC profile. It negates the default tone curve and offsets the sRGB transfer function (all added by default in ACR) to linearize the signal, then we add a log formula and an exposure offset relevant to each camera's specified dynamic range - we had to find a good balance between the log curve and SNR while ensuring the DR is not clipped in ACR under default settings while retaining the maximum detail when the exposure slider is used (the Cinelog curve is a fairly complex mix of a basic Cineon log formula and gamma). Don't be scared of using the ACR exposure slider if the image is too bright or too dark - I nearly always pull it down a bit as it produces a thicker negative and it works in a similar way to EI linked in-camera log profiles.

While on the subject of ACR, it is impossible to make accurate camera profiles of Log-C, Slog, BMD Film etc from the actual math formulas because of limitations in the way ACR works (If it was possible I would make the fullset). The log curve always needs to be scaled, offset or manipulated (i.e. by adding a shoulder rolloff portion) in some way to avoid truncating the signal on it's way to After Effects (as can happen with other profiles), hence why the Cinelog V3.0 log curve is unique but once it's passed through ACR and is sitting on the AE timeline it is effectively Cineon log albeit with slightly raised gamma.

re: Canon log - you are correct in your other post about the C500 being the only C-series camera (so far) to record Canon Cinema Gamut. The C300 Canon Log profile gamut (CP Lock) is close to Rec709 primaries (but as I mentioned previously, with some non-linear tweaks). I managed to source a full set of chart exposures shot in Canon log on the C300 today and it's thrown up some interesting things regarding the CPLock gamut and the way the 8bit files work in relation to MLRaw from ACR. Apart from the difference in bit depth, it looks like you will get a much better default  match using a combination of Canon log and Canon Wide DR. I still need to build the OCIO transform (should be ready tomorrow for you to try). A nice side affect is that it seems to produce a much better spread of the C300 signal than Canons own luts and transforms - it's certainly better than the Canon Log to Cineon transfer function they provide - it doesn't clip the signal

Anyway, enough waffle from me for tonight. I'll be in touch tomorrow.

[Terry Tibbs]

Hey thanks Andy! Exciting stuff!

Look forward to hearing more!

I'm understanding the essence of a lot of what you're saying but I won't deny a lot of of it is going over my head.

I've ony ever used ACR noise reduction with the most basic settings as I am much more used to using Noise Ninja for photography, but I found this tutorial:

https://youtu.be/R9lPemcMcFE

Long story short, the settings look like this:



He also turns the clarity up a touch.

I've brought it into Premiere and once the same Film Comvert LUT is applied it's not a bad match, although it may be a wee bit too sharp in the end. I might bring the sharpening down a tad on the next attempt which should help with the noise.

Glad I at least got it right about the Cinema Gamut and the C500, and using DNxHD 444

Cheers!

[cpc]

The problem with ETTR is that even if it will give the cleanest possible image, it is time consuming in post to match shots in a sequence if each shot is exposed using ETTR. I personally never use ETTR.
But what I often do with any camera is I rate the camera slower than the official rating; in other words, equally overexpose all shots. This trades highlights latitude for cleaner image. You get some of the benefits of ETTR but without sacrificing consistency. And image consistency is beneficial on many levels. Rating slower is especially useful for shooting raw or log transfer curves because manufacturers almost always specify ISOs which maximize DR but result in noisy shadows.

The 5dm3 can be beautiful at iso 1600 as long as it is properly exposed. Here is a couple of images from an old short I shot (I don't have a Canon camera anymore); both at 1600, with no noise reduction whatsoever:





The first image is fine as it is, and the second can use a little bit of NR in the shadows. Pretty clean where it counts though. In fact, passing it through the default color NR settings of ACR would probably deliver pretty clean shadows (I used Resolve on this short).

[Andy600]

Wow that is some serious sharpening!  - the resulting image will be filled with ringing artifacts and probably look like a checkerboard up close

There is a very good tut on ACR sharpening - I need to find the link but basically, hold down the CTRL key (or maybe it's the ALT key?  - I'm saying this from memory) when making your adjustments. The key is to use the masking control to isolate the edges (push it quite high) then use the Radius slider to limit the sharpening area (keep it at a low value) then just tweak the amount. I rarely touch the Detail slider as it can cause artifacts.

For NR settings in ACR I tend to apply chroma NR first then nudge the luma NR until it starts smoothing the noise a touch but still has some texture - it's personal taste but less is more. NeatVideo has much better control and can be targeted - it's well worth using if you don't mind the extra processing time but it's probably not a good idea to use both at once.

re: Canon - I'll try and simplify things for you when I email you tomorrow - I know I can waffle a bit 

[Terry Tibbs]

lol ok yeah I thought it may have been overkill!

Would be interested to see the link. Will try and get my head around what you're saying RE: CTRL ALT etc but it's a wee bit over my head. But dedication's what you need etc.

With regard to the waffle, that's why I'm here! Go for it!

[Andy600]

@cpc - I'm with you on that. I think ETTR can easily be misunderstood by some users and it's an option that can easily produce bad results if not used correctly. You still have to factor in the dynamic range of the scene and what the camera can actually capture for it to work so it's important to make use of the raw EV offsets (clipping allowances) in scenes with high DR.

I tend to expose for the subject when doing my own shots and deal with any clipped spectrals latter - 90% of the time I don't need/use ETTR, I just make sure the important stuff is in the middle and there is no highlight clipping other than spectrals. If I don't have lighting with me and cant capture what I want in the available light, within the limits of the aperture and ISO of the camera, I don't hit record - there is no point. I know I've missed some good shots with this methodology but if the technology/gear/me isn't up to task for something I think it better to avoid wasting CF card space and a disappointing post review of the footage. You can't polish a t**d 

[Danne]

Perfect examples cpc.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. When I say ettr I actually mean this.

Code Select Expand

I rate the camera slower than the official rating; in other words, equally overexpose all shots -cpc

[Danne]

Hi @Andy600

Cinelog-C (the OCIO part) acts like a compressor and is capable of squeezing the debayered linear signal's RGB values and DR for rendering to a 10bit space without being affected by ICC gamut mapping.

Would be very interesting if you shared what this means in practice. When compressing RGB values and DR, are you using curve tool and tweaking gamma, contrast or what is used to compress the signals? Do you mean you go from 16-bit to 10-bit space? It is all very abstract right now. You can link if you like.
Thanks

[Andy600]

@Danne - This is very specific to the workings of ACR and how it interacts with After Effects and ICC profiles. The task is to ensure debayered linear pixel values can be transformed to a log colorspace, rendered (in a 10bit container) and later inverted to produce the same values i.e. there are typically no out of gamut values remaining after the transform that would cause the ICC profile to remap them (depending on the ICC profile's rendering intent) or be truncated by the act of rendering.

Think of it as trying to get a large, square peg into a smaller, round hole - Cinelog reshapes the square peg to match the round hole and because it's an invertible math function we can pretty much get it back to being a larger square peg (reproducing out of gamut values). The formula we use is our IP so forgive me for not sharing that part  

I should add that it also allows super brights (pixels that have values exceeding 1.0 in floating point) to be retained.

[Danne]

@Andy600  even more, haha.
Every word has to be googled. Gonna do some digging.

[Andy600]

@Danne - I'm not sure I can simplify it further 

Is there something specific that you are trying to do?

[Danne]

It,s totally fine.
Actually. I,m very interested in learning to create linear to log luts. 1d lut and how to achieve logs for certain purposes and such. To do creative 3d luts in Davinci resolve is one thing but I was thinking more in technical lut terms? What tools is needed and so on.

[Terry Tibbs]

Nice to see this thread has sparked off something that might be of use to someone else

This is as good as I've managed with ACR, a Film Convert LUT and a touch of Neat Video. Added some grain back in with Film Convert - seemed to make it look less plastic... Not sure if the level of noise is acceptable or not? Feel free to take a look anyone. Oh, and yes I didn't have a focus puller or DP, so I did it by hand on the lens, just guessing. Not ideal, I know. The rest of the shoot was done very professionally lol.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/drxb54

Oddly, the footage appeared sped up when I imported it so I slowed it 80% and it seems better. Project frame rate was set to 30 fps and I shot at 25, so I thought it was the reason, but it turns out even after switching to 25 it still looked to fast. I'm not sure if I was imagining it or not. He just seemed to waddle into the shot too fast...

EDIT: Might try again with no sharpening at all in ACR before AE

[Terry Tibbs]

Interestingly (for me anyway ) when I switch to Cinelog C Rec709 output in Open ColourIO in AE much of the noise disappears. I know a lot of that is because the contrast is higher, but it really looks much cleaner too. (And to my eyes it actually looks pretty similar to how it does when I have the Film Convert LUT on with some colour differences) Wondering if I can export that way, but guessing not.

In ACR I have decided to import again with no sharpening at all but just increase to clarity. Maybe it'll be a bit cleaner now.

Sorry if I am boring you all with this. I have been working on this film for nearly a year and it is destroying me lol. 

[Andy600]

@Terry Tibbs - the noise is still there but pushed much lower - this is normal.

If you like the look of Cinelog Rec709 (or Rec709 FM - the one I would go for personally as it has more film-like saturation and highlight rolloff) you could try it with Film Convert's sRGB default input. It might be a better fit.

[Andy600]

@Danne - a spreadsheet is really all you need for the calculations and a text editor for creating the lut file.

You can create any simple or complex log curve from a row of input values and build the lut manually by duplicating the resulting columns to create one for each RGB channel, then copy/paste the 3 columns into a text file (named to whatever suffix the luts are named i.e. .cube) with the appropriate lut header (you can copy one from an existing lut). Just make sure the data conforms properly (by swapping tabs spaces to spaces etc). The input values may be integers and must be scaled to 0.0 - 1.0 nominal range before applying a log formula for most lut formats, although some lut formats like Resolve 1D input luts use integers.

Dan Newman from GoPro posted a very simple but useful spreadsheet example of the calculations behind GoPro Protune a while back. The original Dropbox link is dead but I've reuploaded it for you:

http://we.tl/waYmG6Fw5p

You should easily get a grasp of the basics from this and from there you can look at developing/trying different formulas, setting black and white levels, gamma, offsets etc etc

[Danne]

Just what I need. Big thanks!

[DeafEyeJedi]

So glad that @Terry Tibbs sparked this wonderful thread filled with valuable pointers as well as important questions being answered promptly!

Just looked at your recent sample and you have definitely came a long way in matter of days which is remarkable and keep up the great work! Also agreed w @Andy600 that you should go for Cinelog_Rec709_FM to get that film like saturation look along with a nice highlight rolloff.

You can never bored any of us (well at least for me). So tell me, Terry, would you rather use NeatVideo than trying to get rid of noise manually via ACR as you were trying to previously?

Also thanks to @Andy600 for providing the perfect link to get @Danne up to speed with the process of creating our own 1D LUT, etc!

[Terry Tibbs]

@DeafEyeJedi @Andy

Hey!

Do you guys mean Cinelog Rec709 in OpencolourIO? I'm guessing you do. At the moment my output in OpenColourIO is set to Cinelog-C.

Not sure if it's that or an LUT you're talking about. I'm using Film Convert for the LUT as far as I know. Having said that I do see there's a bank of LUTs with my download from the Cinelog Website so I'll certainly have a look.

@Andy if it's the OpenColourIO setting you're referring to, I could try it with the Film Convert SRBG setting, but ultimately it has to match the footage with the C300 I have. The setting in Film Convert I'mnusing for that is FJH160s Pro. Maybe I could adjust the colours if the tones match.

Re: Noise, I'm not much of an expert at noise removal with either program when it comes to video. In photography I tend to get exposure right, but when I don't I use Noise Ninja. Sometimes ACR is good for colour noise I have noticed when shooting weddings, but I only really know the most basic of settings and in photography have only ever pushed the luminance to 20 or so. Neat Video is a bit over my head tbh. But like most things, if you have the will to learn you will learn.

I had another go, I'll leave a link. No worries if you can't be bothered to download lol. I've been on this one clip all day. I've managed to get it a little cleaner but the blacks look like they could come down a bit. The thing is, if I put more than one or two effects on in Premiere I get a hideous banding effect around the car headlight flare and other places that doesn't go away with rendering or exporting.

I know from photography that editing colour heavily in anything under 16 bit causes a lot of that sort of thing, so I'm guessing this is the case in Premiere, and I need to guess the black point in ACR before AE. Here's my progress anyway:

https://www.sendspace.com/file/o9q5c3

These are the settings I used in ACR:



I have no idea if it's best, but I decided to favour less noise over sharpness, and didn't sharpen at all, but pushed the clarity to +60. Next go round I'll try and get it like this but adjust the blacks in ACR as I import to AE. It takes about 20 mins to render and export this clip each time lol.

Once again, thankyou for your help guys. I literally have no one else to help me on this and I've been through hell to get where I am with this film. At least I know how to shoot and edit 5D RAW now! (nearly) 

[Andy600]

@Terry Tibbs - emailed you some things to try

[Terry Tibbs]

  Thankyou x 1000

[Terry Tibbs]

God, just looking at the last link I posted. It's worse than the first. That's what happens when you stare at a screen all day without a break hah!

[Terry Tibbs]

Better now I think. And a better colour match for the C300 footage. I found Neat Video worked better than ACR.

Not perfect but usable.

I think?

https://www.sendspace.com/file/m2xhzs

[The Director]

use "vertical banding fix" in raw2cdng 1.7.4
http://www.phreekz.de/wordpress/2014/04/magiclantern-raw2cdng-1-5-0/

[Terry Tibbs]

Ah yes. I saw that setting. Wasn't sure whether or not to use.  I can't find any tutorials anywhere on the latest version. I got some better results on the most recent version I did. I don't know if I actually tried that setting yet...

[DeafEyeJedi]

@Terry Tibbs:

Do you reckon that Neat Video actually does a better job than ACR regarding Noise/Sharpening?

I'm considering giving their product a shot. Been hesitating to buy this for years but kept convincing myself that ACR does just as well if not better?

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

[Terry Tibbs]

@DeafEyeJedi

Hey man. Hmm well given my current experience and recent tests I'd actually say that Neat Video does a better job with certain techniques. I wouldn't say I'm fully qualified to answer that question with any conviction, but that's the way it's looking to me at the moment....

[Frank7D]

Neat Video is good (I use it in certain situations) but it is sloooooow.
Just another factor to consider.