Workflow confusion - Slimraw or not...importing to CS6, etc

[Terry Tibbs]

Hi there!

Great forum!

Looking for some impartial advice...

I have been in touch with the nice chap from Cinelog, and am at least decided on using that in ACR to get a close match between the C300 footage I have shot and the pick ups on 5D RAW.

What is not entirely clear to me is what I need to do in between.

Firstly it has been suggested to me that I use Slimraw after Raw2CDNG, which will allow me to import cdngs directly into Premiere CS6, but after having downloaded the trial, I see that CS6 won't import either CDNGs or DNGs. I found something called CinemaDNGImporter which I tried, but I am told CS6 will only import at 8bit, which kind of defeats the object of shooting in 14bit MLRAW.

I am going to use Film Convert in Premiere Pro, so all I am looking at doing is getting the tone and contrast etc from the 5DIII RAW footage to fairly closely match the C-Log C300 footage. From there I can treat it all with the same grading.

I have After Effects but I don't know how to use it. But if anyone has easy steps I would be prepared to try. But ultimately, if it's possible, being able to import directly into Premiere CS6 would be ideal. Color matching is less important than tone and level matching for me, as a photographer I have a good eye for that sort of thing and can sort that out in grading after import to CS6.

So, can anyone suggest me the most simple workflow so that I can get on with this? Do I need Slimraw? Do I need After Effects?

Also not concerned about speed. I have a really fast PC, and the clips are only short pick ups.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me with this. I have a load of footage sitting here and I just want to edit it!

Terry Tibbs. X

My film:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4401636/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_4

[Danne]

You need adobe CC to work with cdng sequences. Then slimraw will be able to convert to fit premiere pro.

You can also use raw2cdng or mlrawviewer to develop dng/cdng sequences.

[Terry Tibbs]

Hey Danne.

Thanks for the reply. I am climbing the walls here.

So you don't think there's a way that CinemaDNGImporter can be used for Premiere CS6? I guess TIF or PSD is not ideal...

I don't have CC, so would you recommend I just go RAW2CDNG>Cinelog>After Effects output to ProRes444>Premiere CS6?

Seems with Cinelaog I also need OpenColorIO which looks like a headache...

[Danne]

ProRes files through after effects are top notch. Don, t mess with the wrong acr sliders though cause you will get flicker.
Try the lut effect. Don, t think open color is needed.
Also check out davinci resolve lite.

[Terry Tibbs]

Someone else has been mentioning Resolve Lite as well. I'm a little confused as to whether using Resolve makes ACR redundant. I'm particularly keen on using ACR....

[Frank7D]

Here is one option for using AE/ACR (pre-CC) with mlv.

[Terry Tibbs]

Hey thanks Frank. I'll check this out

[Andy600]

@Terry Tibbs (Talk to me!) 

I'm still working on this for you but have to fit it into a heavy work schedule (made worse by a difficult house move last week) - sorry for the delay.

Getting the footage onto the timeline is relatively simple but you will still have a problem when color matching to a 5D3 raw image because the C300 (using Canon Log/CPLock profile) processes the raw sensor data in such a way as to preserve the maximum DR of the camera, relative to the selected EI and this processing stage includes some form of non-linear manipulation of RGB values (not just a simple 3x3 matrix) - similar to a picture style in a DSLR. Plus C300 files have baked white balance so you must set it up accurately before shooting - and preferably shoot a chart. TBH charts are essential when it comes to color and white balance so you should always have one in the bag.

There is a very complex (non standard) ACES IDT for the C300 that transforms Canon log footage to ACES primaries (this can then be transformed to XYZ). DNG files use a simple color matrix (or set of matrices) that maps native sensor RGB values to XYZ (linear) so we do have a way to connect the colorspaces (i.e. XYZ) BUT the C300 IDT does not work well in reverse (ARRI, Sony and other IDTs work fine).

To get around the problem we have to develop a non-linear color correction lut or ICC profile, made specifically for your shots.

As I mentioned in my previous email, the usual (technical) method of color matching cameras is to map each camera to the same reference values (i.e. color patches of a Macbeth chart, DSC chart, IT8 chart etc), not match one camera to another but you do need to shoot charts for every change of scene lighting.

Unfortunately there is no color reference in any of the shots so it becomes less of a technical process and more visual/artistic.

Fortunately, the pickup shots are short and we can get a reasonably good match in terms of color and gamma (which I will provide as LUTs and/or ICC profiles for whichever app you want to use - ACR, Photoshop, Lightroom, AE, premier Pro etc etc) - whether or not this works under FilmConvert is another matter as FC does have a technical first stage that expects the correct input gamut.

This would be much less of an issue if MLV shooting cameras had ACES IDTs of their own but we (Cinelog) are still in the process of developing them. We have built new color matrices for each camera and are developing the IDTs but it's a very complex job that has to be pixel accurate in terms of RGB values - and then be accepted into ML source code.

re: OpenColorIO in AE or Premier (plus Nuke, Natron etc) is very simple to use - you just select the colorspace of your footage and a target colorspace (these can even be ACES IDTs ) - the transform happens in realtime so all you have to do is render.

re: ACR or Resolve - ACR is slower but has a great debayer plus noise reduction, good sharpening tools and raw level camera profiles. Resolve (lite) is free, faster, has good debayering and excellent scaling algorithms but no native NR.

[Terry Tibbs]

Andy! Hah! I didn't realise you were on here. Although I guess that should have been obvious in hindsight.

I have to get on with this now as I'm twiddling my thumbs, so I'm installing OpenColorIO now for After Effects. If it's running smoothly the next step will be to buy Cinelog for ACR.

This is all happening today, so I'll let you know how it goes via email. If you come up with anything in the mean time or at some point in the future that'd be awesome, but for now I just need to get the relevant footage into Premiere to get on with the edit.

As said before, I'm a photographer, so although not technically correct, I'm pretty confident in my ability to match colour by eye using whatever means. More important is getting the right 'flatness' to emulate C300 C-Log. The clips are all pretty short so I'm not too worried, so long as the average viewer doesn't notice it jump out....

If you come up with a more accurate setting for my situation at a later date I can swap the footage!

Thanks for all your emails anyway. I've learnt a lot over the last week or two!

Terry (aka Rod)

[DeafEyeJedi]

@Terry Tibbs:

I used to be just like you a year or two ago... getting headaches with installing and getting OCIO to work properly with Cinelog-C at first but then without @Andy600, @Danne, @Frank7D & @reddeercity's correspondents, patience and sharing knowledge w me -- I wouldn't be where I am today and I can assure you that you're on the right track with getting on board with this similar workflow that they're sharing with you.

You said you were keen on sticking with Adobe's ACR , right?

Then this OCIO plugin will be your best friend and it works remarkably well with Cinelog-C in AE.

Jm2c!

[Terry Tibbs]

***EDIT: Ok seems I need to download the Avid DNxHD codecs?? ***

***EDIT EDIT:*** Ok I have the Avid coxdecs but which one? Aaaarrrrrrrggghhhh. So many.***

*** EDIT EDIT EDIT*** Ok so I went for Avid DNxHD 444 because it sounds most like Pro Res 444***

Anyway:

Hey @DeafEyeJedi

Cool! And yes, very steep learning curve for me in the last couple of weeks. So many helpful people!

I've got the OpenColorIO working actually as it goes!

I've downloaded Cinelog and I've got fairly far with it all.

Two quick questions you or anyone else may be able to answer actually, and save Andy a bit of stress (I've been badgering him a bit)

1) What should my output be set to in OpencolourIO? It's not quite clear to me from the quick start guide on the Cinelog site)

What I've gathered is that I can use Cinelog-C Rec709 to check the exposure, but I'm not sure whether the standard output for a 5D MKIII trying to emulate a C300 C-Log should just be 'Cinelog-C', or under the Canon menu 'Canon C-Log Cinema Gamut' etc.

Canon C-Log Cinema  Gamut is considerably darker than Cinelog -C at least in the viewer....

2) On the Cinemalog quickstart page, in After Effects under Output Module, with Quicktime checked, the format options include Avid and Pro Res, etc, but I don't seem to have any of those options for the master render. I'm under the impression that for my purposes ProRes444 is the best option, but I don't seem to have that. I shold aslo add that I'm on PC and not Mac. Not sure if that means I shouldn't be using quicktime?

Here's a screenshot of the options I do have when quicktime is checked...

http://i61.tinypic.com/2wlznet.jpg


Can anyone recommend the best option? I'll be importing to Premiere CS6, and ideally I'd like to keep the bitrate as high as poss, with the intention of getting as close to C300 C-Log as possible.

Probably going to use Film Convert in Premiere after that...

OK that's it for now!

Hoping someone can answer this here. Otherwise I guess I'll start a new thread!

Thanks for your help so far guys

Terry Tibbs.

[DeafEyeJedi]

Since you are running Windows and I mainly use OS X even though we are talking about the same apps/plugin's so I'll try my best to get you up to speed with my knowledge even though I'm not Andy, hehe.

1) Sounds like you would want/need to get these ProRes (with Exposure,Tint,WB set via ACR) exported with Cinelog-C in ProRes444XQ (or DNxHD for you on Windows) before you do any color grade or applying LUT's to try and duplicate the look with your C300 footage.

As for the OCIO settings within AE:

You would want to set the first Input Space to 'Cinelog v3.0 (use this in Input Space)'.

Then you would want to set the second Output Space to 'Cinelog-C' and that's what a beautiful looking flat log looks like (Thanks @Andy600).

Unless If you want to skip this part where you want to apply with an already preset LUT that Andy recently emailed you (Im assuming) that's the one that gives you the color (may need to adjust exposure) to match the C300 C-log with your RAW/MLV files from 5D3 that way you can use them as it is in PP, if you rather to save yourself time?

2) If I understand this question correctly it sounds like you're missing the ProRes444XQ or DNxHD in the master export direct (I ran into similar situation) and fortunately for me I had @reddeercity help me out on setting up properly in AE to make this possible.

Here's the link of where I learned how to create & add ProRes4444XQ within the export settings in AE according to him (Thanks for sharing @reddeercity!) in here!

[Terry Tibbs]

Hey! @DeafEyeJedi..yes exactly...nail on head. I was missing the codec!

It seems I may have sussed it in the mean time and I got the Avid DNxHD codec and went for DNxHD 444 (see my multiple edits at the top of my previous post lol)

Not sure if that's the right one though? But I think 444 is supposed to give the most faithful colour rendition?

As for the output setting, it seems that the C500 is the only Canon camera that supports Canon C-Log Cinema Gamut anyway, so Cinelog-C it must be, and it looks much better at that setting. In fact I bet I can even pull it down a half a stop.....

Thanks mate. I reeeeeeally appreciate your help! I've been sitting in front of this computer now for about 16 hours today (and about 200 hours in the last week or two) and I'm finally getting an idea of where to go with this!

As a photographer/director I had never even shot video two weeks ago, let alone in ML RAW. Now I can shoot it and edit it!

I haven't looked at the link you just posted, but that's next, cheers!

God blesh the internet