Author Topic: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?  (Read 14304 times)

NitromanX

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Hi all !

I'm currently using a Canon 5D II with a VAF-5D2 anti aliasing filter for Magic Lantern raw video. Aliasing is still apparent, especially when converting to .dng and tif output.

I was wondering if the anti-aliasing and moire were any better with the Canon 5D III ? They are a pretty good price now so was not sure whether to upgrade or not.

What are people's experience with aliasing and moire on Canon 5D3 using ML raw video ? Is it likely to be any better than my Canon 5D2 with the VAF fitted ?

All thoughts appreciated ...

baccinoluigi

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2015, 09:37:49 PM »
The best way with 5d MK II for aliasing is raw video in crop mode, after couple of test with VAF-5D2 I sold the filter and I bought a sigma 8-16 that in crop mode becomes a 24-48 without vignetting the max wide angle you can have in crop mode.
Now i've upgraded my camera with 5d mk III and it seems the best choice for aliasing moire and raw video image quality.
Here some test with and without VAF in crop mode  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvJEYtq3eP-_vysvBOBal6w/videos

QuickHitRecord

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2015, 10:47:42 PM »
I haven't seen any moire yet on my 5D3 (recording raw on 1.13), but there has been a little aliasing on high contrast lines. Nothing to get too concerned about though.
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Markus

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2015, 11:08:26 PM »
I would say it's almost non-existing, at least when you develop your footage in davinci resolve.

NitromanX

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2015, 09:07:04 AM »
That's great guys ... many thanks ! Incredibly helpful as alwys. :)

Think I need to splash out on a 5D3.  :)

Out of interest ... what is raw playback like on the 5D3 as it's pretty choppy on the 5D2 ?

poromaa

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2015, 11:12:13 AM »
I'm currently using a Canon 5D II with a VAF-5D2 anti aliasing filter for Magic Lantern raw video. Aliasing is still apparent, especially when converting to .dng and tif output.

How do you convert the footage? For example Premiere can't debayer dng's correctly (since its debayering is only meant for realtime playback proxy or something) so I suggest you try with after effects, lightroom or Davinci Resolve.


poromaa

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2015, 11:19:02 AM »
I sold the filter and I bought a sigma 8-16 that in crop mode becomes a 24-48 without vignetting the max wide angle you can have in crop mode.

However, in doing so, you loose your full frame camera and the shallow depth of field that you get with big sensor and a fast lens.
I think your Sigma needs to be 1.6 (cropfactor) faster than an equivalent lens on a full frame to get sam shallow depth of field on same angle, say 50mm.

A way to get around this is instead to buy a metabone speedbooster for 4/3 sensors. Then you can use your full frame lenses and keep shallow depht of field and film in cropmode to limit aliasing. Please correct me if Im wrong here, Im writing this in a hurry.


NitromanX

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2015, 01:00:10 PM »
I'm converting the .mlv files to dng via MLRawViewer. Then i convert the .dng in Adobe Camera Raw to upsize to 1920 x 1080 with low sharpening and output as tif or jpg. Then i make an Image Sequence in Quicktime Pro 7 as ProRes HQ or 4444 and import into FCP X.

I don't have Resolve, After Effects or Premiere so need to use FCPX. ;)

Is that a decent workflow ? It's hard to keep up with latest advances in Magic Lantern raw.

Incidentally, I'm using the VAF 5D2b - not the original version 5D2a. The 'b' version is pretty damn good with wide angle zooms - even up to 16mm with just a little image softening.


Markus

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2015, 04:29:03 PM »
Davinci resolve lite is free...

Markus

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2015, 04:42:09 PM »
I would recommend mounting the mlv's with mlvfs instead of extracting DNGs -> import mounted dng seq. In resolve, develop them using the BMD film setting, tweak raw settings and give them some contrast with s-curve that's light on the shadows and then export prores or dnxhd frome there. Could be a bit of a learning curve if you haven't used those programs before but if you get through that you'll have a much less cumbersome workflow.

NitromanX

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2015, 09:45:36 PM »
Sorry Markus, you've lost me a little. I'm not familiar with 'mounting' mlvfs ? Can you tell me again in real simple language ? What are mlvfs etc ? :)

I'd prefer the use Final Cut Pro X as i know it pretty well. Is there no way to speed up my workflow other than using Resolve ?

I like the speed of the MLRawViewer .mov output, but can't quite get the colours i'm after using the different log settings.

Bit of a newbie so please elaborate. ;)

Licaon_Kter

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goldenchild9to5

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2015, 11:01:40 PM »
@NitromanX 5D Mark III all day everyday you'll won't regret it, can't go wrong with it.  From my experience Zero aliasing, Zero Moire that I can see from my footages. 

poromaa

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2015, 11:02:13 PM »
Then i convert the .dng in Adobe Camera Raw to upsize to 1920 x 1080 with low sharpening and output as tif or jpg. Then i make an Image Sequence in Quicktime Pro 7 as ProRes HQ or 4444 and import into FCP X.

If you start using MLVFS (its great), you will get virtual DNGs that you can make your ProRes from. However, I would not recommend exporting to JPG and then Prores 4444 (why not only 422 - alpha channel not needed) since you will get compression artefacts and loose dynamic range when grading later on. However, you could skip this and just render a proxy in any format that you will use when cutting the video. Then when you are done editing, export it as xml. Open the thing in Davinci, replace the ProRes-clips with the virtual DNGs (The mounted MLVs, simply as clean as you can get) and then grade the thing in Davinci. Finally deliver everything with a final render from Davinci. This final render will go from MLV->DNG->output. No degrading middle steps

NitromanX

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2015, 11:10:52 PM »
That sounds great Poromaa, but I've never used Davinci Resolve and still getting my head around FCP X. Bit of a newbie ! :)

Does FCPX support cinema dng's ?

I must admit, I like the way Adobe Camera Raw works and can make the frames look as I'm primarily a photographer. I heard that ACR can cause flicker if the sliders are heavily adjusted, so i'm being careful.

I've installed and then mounted the files using MLVFS, but don't think i can do much with them without using Resolve is there ?

Advice is much appreciated as this is a bit of a learnig curve for me. :)

DeafEyeJedi

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Re: What is the Moire & Aliasing in ML raw video like on Canon 5D III ?
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2015, 11:28:14 PM »
If you really want to use FCPX then you can just simply use MLVFS > AE (I like to apply Cinelog-C) > FCPX (Final Grade with LUTS) and then export as ProRes 4444XQ

(Resolve keeps on crashing on my POS Macbook so I can't even use it... hehe)

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