Author Topic: 600D Capabilities  (Read 21622 times)

PaulHarwood856

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600D Capabilities
« on: February 09, 2015, 06:40:51 AM »
     Hello Magic Lantern. My name is Paul Harwood. Over the past year I have used your firmware, and absolutely love it! Over the past few months, I have been researching online extensively about raw video on the T3i. I am very happy with the firmware, and how you have made my camera more useful than I could have ever expected. There has been something on my mind for a couple weeks, and I haven't quite been able to find the answer. I have read as well as recognized while recording, that the T3i has a 20 mb/sec buffer limit, and this is why raw recording is limited in resolution. I absolutely love being able to record raw with sound continuously with 960 x 540 resolution. I have experimented with 5x zoom to reach better resolutions which is very cool. All I wanted to ask was if Magic Lantern knows of any way to bypass the buffer limit. I ask this because I would like to be able to use the whole frame, like 720p or 1080p H.264. I realize this question might sound dumb, and I apologize for that. I am not a technician or anything, and I do not know much in the mechanical aspects of cameras. I am just really curious to see how far raw recording could go with the T3i. I would like to know if there is any way to extend the camera's buffer. Possibly physically, or change the sd card slot to a CF. I am using a Sandisk Extreme Pro 32 GB 95 mb/sec UHS Class 10. I don't know of a card that would do better, but I am open to suggestions for this as well to extend raw recording. Again I am very pleased with this firmware. The latest nightly builds have been superb. I noticed Audio Gain was added to Mic Gain. And I was extremely happy about the AGC disable, which I discovered in a October 2014 nightly build. If anyone can answer my question I would greatly appreciate it. I apologize if this question seems a bit out there, and if it was already answered on the forum. Thank you so much Magic Lantern.

Walter Schulz

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2015, 07:02:39 AM »
All I wanted to ask was if Magic Lantern knows of any way to bypass the buffer limit.

At time of writing: No.

PaulHarwood856

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2015, 08:14:03 AM »
Hello Walter. Thank you for replying to my post. I've read if I format my sd card to ExFat I can record longer in raw. Is this true? Are there any other modules or files I need to add to achieve the best raw recording possible out of the T3i? Any help on this would be great. Thanks.

walter_schulz

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2015, 09:05:07 AM »
ExFAT: AFAIK 600D/T3i doesn't support it. You can test it with a spare card. Format with ExFAT using a cardreader and insert card into cam. If cam requires re-format you have no ExFAT support.


PaulHarwood856

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2015, 03:01:11 PM »
Thanks for getting back to me Walter. I was able to make both cards bootable using Macboot along with Macboot Command. Clicking Macboot Command 1st (for Mac OS 10.8 and up, I'm using Yosemite 10.10.2) For PC it would be the EOS Card utility by Pelican. Although the camera says I need to update the firmware, Magic Lantern V2.3 was already on the card, ready to go. Then I was able to install the latest Nightly Build for the T3i, January 29th, 2015. This worked for a 64 GB Transcend Class 10 SDXC 30 MB/SEC card as well as a Sandisk 32 GB Extreme Pro UHS Class 10 95 MB/SEC card. Through the installation process I made sure I followed all of Magic Lantern's steps. I'm excited to test out this different format, and I'll post back here if I see any major differences. Thanks again for your help Walter. Hope all is well!

JADURCA

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2015, 08:17:40 PM »
Hi! I'm just experimenting with 600D RAW maximun capabilities these days! Check it here!

http://magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=14508.0

PaulHarwood856

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2015, 04:06:07 AM »
     Hello JADURCA thanks for replying to my post. These are really good ideas for settings for 600D raw. I really like the resolution, aspect ratio, and particularly the 12 fps slow down to 24 fps idea. I have a VAF filter coming in for anti aliasing with the 600D. I was under the consumption that since these are raw images, they are not compressed into H.264 and therefore wouldn't have moire. But I think you are right, because I now remember there was an aliasing problem with raw images in a photography certification class I had. Do you mind running through the settings you used for this video, how long you were able to record, and also with or without sound? I have been trying to get my settings down, and am super excited about the 12 fps idea and 50% in Twixtor. Also, if you want, you can upscale your video to 4K using Red Giant Instant 4K (there are serial codes for these products on Youtube), but I am not quite sure if this is available for Sony Vegas. Do you mind explaining Raw Crop Mode? I was a little confused on these, and where the setting is. I apologize if these are too many questions, I am just super psyched to communicate with someone trying Raw for the 600D.

     If you are curious about the moire and anti aliasing VAF TXI Filter, here is the website.

http://www.mosaicengineering.com/products/vaf/txi.html

     I am aware the website says $295, which is a lot of money. But I have spoken to the Mosaic Engineering personnel a couple times, and they explained to me they have used filters. These have some marks, but do not affect what the product does whatsoever. The marks aren't seen in the video. I still need to figure out if these filters are supposed to be used in Raw video, since they aren't supposed to pictures. They are mainly for better H.264 compression results.

     I hope I have been able to provide some good input for you as you have for me. Thanks so much JADURCA! I hope to hear from you about the settings, just trying to get the best ones!

JADURCA

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2015, 09:56:04 AM »
Thanks!!! The problem when recording RAW format with a 600D and others Canon cameras (excluding Mark3) is that they process images for video using a resolution line skipping technique from the sensor. And what this really means? It means that the image is made using one line of data from the sensor, then omit the next line bellow it, then take another line, then omit the other one until the image is completed. See figure bellow of how it works.



This technique introduces aliasing and moire artifacts to the video, because lines are skipped (like when your looking trough an horizontal blind) ruining the quality of the image. Then that's when Crop Mode (CM) come to your services. CM sample the sensor in the middle of the image using all the resolution lines needed without skipping one. Therefore you end with a consistent image 1:1 pixel mapping from the sensor. Pros: Eliminate the aliasing and moire problems. Cons: You lose the wide angle feature of your lens, that's because it uses just a part of the middle of the sensor. As you know photo resolution of the 600D is 5184x3456 (18 MP), so you get the idea of the small part used in the middle of the sensor when recording RAW video at 1600x680 for example. That's why you end with a telephoto (3x to be exact) perspective. If your lens is 17 mm then you end up with a 51 mm perspective.

How you activate CM? Easy, just press the zoom magnification button and x5 is displayed. You will see your display in gray scale, that's ok, it is the correct framing. Then press the delete button to activate CM RAW options. These were my settings for RAW in the video you saw. With these settings I can record like 1 minute and 13 seconds.  Enough for me for a music video. No sound can be recorded with this settings, but you can still use an outside recorder. In post, just make the project properties 24 fps, then use Twixtor at 50% and don't forget to make the clip 50% longer because with Twixtor now you have more frames.


FPS Override 12.000 - Optimized for Exact FPS
Resolution - 1600x680
Aspect ratio - 2.35:1
Global Draw - Allow
Frame Skipping - OFF

As for VAF, I read once that it is designed for 1920x1080 resolution and as you know, RAW resolutions are different. If your going to take pictures you need to take it out first, because it can ruin your pictures. Once I was thinking of buying one, but then I realize that I don't really need it. You can spent that money to buy a super wide angle lens so yo can have a wider angle when recording in CM.

I hope this info helps any user of the 600D and others Canon, that share the same settings. Fell free to ask!

honza123

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2015, 06:59:16 PM »
Canon 600D RAW video+sound (mlv_rec.mo, mlv_snd.mo)
1344x504, 18fps, NOcrop-mode.
Up-converted to 1920x714 using RAWTherapee
Recreated to 24fps by Avisynth
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQGo5P3Dspo
EOS 5D Mk.II

PaulHarwood856

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2015, 08:22:27 AM »
     You're welcome JADURCA! Thanks for your reply, and the very helpful feedback. This certainly helps! I have a 6.5mm Opteka Fisheye Lens that I use for skateboarding, so I'll have to experiment with this. Although, I am quite aware of the distortion! I don't remember that being the easiest to remove, but if you have suggestions for distortion removal that would be cool. I might be able to use the GoPro Studio software for MOV files. I do eventually want to buy the Tokina 11-16 f2.8. Are there any wide angle lenses you would suggest for raw crop mode? This is very interesting! Basically I am excited about the VAF Filter for filming bands and events where moire patterns came come and there is nothing I can do about it. I had this happen with a guitarist's hat. I like that I wouldn't have to worry about avoiding certain patterns when using H.264 1920 x 1080 compression. Also, the compression is supposed to be better with the filter (as well as no quality loss)! I eventually want to buy the 5D Mark III, basically because of no moire, 1920 x 1080 Raw Continuous recording with sound, and photography. I was thinking of recording without sound, but syncing would be more difficult since there is no scratch audio from the camera. Do you have a method for this, since you are doing music videos? I plan to eventually upgrade to the Zoom H6.

     Oh by the way, I just experimented a bit with Exfat continuous recording H.264 1920 x 1080 24 fps. I was able to get 30 minutes, and then I tried with the restart recording option in Magic Lantern, and it worked! Not sure if there was a bigger delay, so I'll have to do more testing. I found out FAT32 has a 4 GB limit, and Exfat doesn't. Although this isn't the actual formatting the camera uses, this is a nice feature. I'm pretty sure the files have more time because of no 4 GB limit, and I have read the Exfat is better for Raw video anyway. So I will make sure to post back here when I do some tests!

     One other note. I did not find any difference (so far) with battery life in Exfat vs. FAT32.

     If anyone reading this has experienced good 600D settings as well, and has some cool ideas to try, please let me know! I'm loving RAW!

   

PaulHarwood856

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2015, 08:36:03 AM »
     Hello honza123! Thanks for your reply, and a very nice video showing raw capabilities in the 600D! I really like the quality and colors. What aspect ratio did you use when recording, if you don't mind me asking? I'm guessing 2:35:1. The 18 fps doesn't really look different than 24 fps with the recreate in Avisynth, which is awesome! I like these settings, and have had RAWTherapee, but haven't used it yet. I am excited to try this! One other question though. I have a Mac, and am unable to use Avisynth. Would interpreting the 18 fps to 24 fps in Adobe Premiere Pro work the same? There's an interpret footage option. I've used this for a 24 fps timeline, and when I want to add a 60fps shot, I interpret it into 24 fps for slow motion. Thanks so much!

honza123

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2015, 10:58:09 PM »
Hello PaulHarwood856. You are right with aspect ratio. I am sorry about Adobe Premiere, because I haven't any experience with this software.
:)
EOS 5D Mk.II

PaulHarwood856

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2015, 12:32:34 PM »
Thanks so much for responding honza123. Ok I'll have to do some tests! Do you mind sharing which lens you used for your video? And did you use a shoulder rig?

honza123

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2015, 05:51:42 PM »
Currently I use the lens: TAMRON SP AF 17-50 mm F/2.8 XR Di II VC. I do not use a shoulder rig. I intend to buy Steadycam. I like the "floating" camera. But while recording the image has a tendency to tremble. But budget ... :)
EOS 5D Mk.II

PaulHarwood856

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2015, 01:27:39 AM »
Okay cool thanks for letting me know. I understand. Does recreating the frames adjust for the tremble? I know what you mean by budget, equipment is expensive. I'm always looking around to find the best deals before a purchase. I have a Flycam Nano DSLR HD. I like it, but after seeing a stabilizer review by Tom Antos on Youtube, I am convinced in making this a near future purchase. I highly recommend watching this video, it might just clear a few things up about stabilizers and their possible ease of use depending on the manufacturer.

Here is the link:
Hope all is well!

JADURCA

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2015, 02:19:37 AM »
PaulHarwood856, check my latest production wtih my 600D!!


honza123

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2015, 09:45:10 AM »
Hello PaulHarwood856. I like videos from Tom Antos on Youtube too :) Steadycam Nano DSLR HD, which you have, is similar to my steadycam I am going to buy. Recording videos without any stabilization produces a trembling, of course. To eliminate this, I use Deshaker-Virtualdub.
EOS 5D Mk.II

ibrahim

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2015, 02:44:03 PM »
Hi!

I have looked into the ML Raw chart that is posted on ML. The most stable setting for the canon 600d are those in green and blue. I am interested in filming in the 1:1 liveview max resolution of 1728x1156 (since it does not result in any crop).
What should be the settings in both ML menue and canon menu in order for me to shoot without any crop? How low should the fps be on ML? etc

Thanks in advance



Canon 5D Mark IIIs | Ronin-M | Zeiss 50mm 1.4 planar | Zeiss 35mm 1.4 distagon  | Zeiss 24mm f2 distagon | Zeiss 85mm f1.4 planar
Dual sound system: Tascam DR-60d MKII | Audio Technica AT899 | Sennheiser MKE 600

walter_schulz

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2015, 02:57:12 PM »
Bandwidth needed for continuous recording in 24 fps:
Vertical resolution * Horizontal resolution * Frame rate * 14 / 8
1728 x 1156 x 24 x 14 / 8 = 83897856 Byte/s -> 80 MByte/s (= Number shown by ML when those settings (resolution + frame rate) are used.

Bandwidth available for continuous recording: About 21 MByte/s.
Do the math but you will have to go down to about 6 fps. Or higher frame rates for shorter durations.

PaulHarwood856

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2015, 03:46:23 PM »
Great job JADURCA! This came out awesome! Love the colors and sharpness, and although 6 second clips, you made it work very creatively! Keep the videos coming! I like the 12 fps slow down method, and still need to experiment more  :)

PaulHarwood856

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2015, 03:48:37 PM »
Alright awesome honza123! The Flycams are great. Camera shake is the worse, true that. I use the Warp Stabilizer effect in Adobe Premiere Pro, and it works tremendously! Hope all is well  :)

JADURCA

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2015, 06:09:47 AM »
Thanks PaulHarwood85!!!

honza123

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2015, 02:11:23 PM »
Some older video recorded to RAW(EOS600D) 1728x568 11fps (recreated to 24fps):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1uwC25jzrs
EOS 5D Mk.II

PaulHarwood856

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2015, 07:28:24 PM »
You are welcome JADURCA!  :)

PaulHarwood856

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Re: 600D Capabilities
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2015, 07:30:04 PM »
Wow honza123 this came out great! Do you have to keep the camera really steady in order for recreating frames to work. Is there a software on a Mac that would be able to do this? So much detail in those shots, and great choice of music!  :)