Author Topic: Koji Color Log + ML Raw  (Read 34353 times)

beauchampy

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Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« on: October 15, 2014, 01:03:05 PM »
I've just posted some of my initial findings to my blog. The long and short is - it works better if you combine it with Cinelog!
http://www.paulbeauchamp.co.uk/blog/2014/10/15/pairing-magic-lantern-raw-with-koji-color

DeafEyeJedi

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2014, 07:57:41 AM »
Great read. I'm considering saving up to get the DSLR package. Excellent find @beauchampy!
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andresharambour

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2014, 02:18:53 AM »
Hey guys,

I just wanted to share this short comparison of Koji LUTs being applied to a clip that had Cinelog LUT applied to it.


DeafEyeJedi

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2014, 07:17:20 PM »
Just purchased cinelog few weeks ago -- still on the fence whether of not I should save up to purchase Koji LUTS as well.

Thanks for posting this video...
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DanHaag

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2014, 12:29:06 AM »
Hey guys,

I just wanted to share this short comparison of Koji LUTs being applied to a clip that had Cinelog LUT applied to it.

Looks great! Did you use the same "Cinelog -> Koji Alexa" combination as beauchampy in his blog post or follow another approach? Your subtitles say "Koji: Cinelog to Rec.709 ...". So did you convert to Rec.709
using Cinelog and then add a Koji Generic Rec.709 LUT?

I bought the Koji LOG package and got some fantastic results using it with Cinelog 2.0 and the Alexa versions of the Koji LUTs, just like beauchampy. Would still like to try out other workflows.

andresharambour

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2014, 03:57:12 PM »
Looks great! Did you use the same "Cinelog -> Koji Alexa" combination as beauchampy in his blog post or follow another approach? Your subtitles say "Koji: Cinelog to Rec.709 ...". So did you convert to Rec.709
using Cinelog and then add a Koji Generic Rec.709 LUT?

I bought the Koji LOG package and got some fantastic results using it with Cinelog 2.0 and the Alexa versions of the Koji LUTs, just like beauchampy. Would still like to try out other workflows.

The name of the LUT I used was "Cinelog to Rec.709...". In the LUTs I had, all of them said "to Rec.709" and 4 digits, starting from different camera brands, the ones I used were the Canon dslr ones. I don't know if I have all of them, I borrowed a few just to try them out and see if I buy the package. When I tried the ones that were name Alexa, the results weren't as good.

andresharambour

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2014, 04:10:33 PM »
I was just reading beauchampy's blog and he uses the Color LUTs and what I tried a few REC.709 LUTs, which are different. Just to point out the difference.

DanHaag

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2014, 07:49:57 PM »
Sorry, still confused as I can't find any Cinelog labeled LUTs in my Koji folder.  :-\

I have Koji LUTs labeled CLog and Cineon but nothing else that sounds like Cinelog. And as far as I know CLog is Canon Log but not Cinelog.

Could you please give me one example combination of LUTs with the exact (!) names as they are officially labeled?

Something like: [INPUT]_BMD_FILM_4k_Cinelog-C ---> Koji_Arri_LogC_to_Rec709_2393

Just to clear up any confusion regarding which LUTs you are actually using. :)

Hope you can help, thanks in advance!

andresharambour

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2014, 10:02:49 PM »
Sorry, still confused as I can't find any Cinelog labeled LUTs in my Koji folder.  :-\

I have Koji LUTs labeled CLog and Cineon but nothing else that sounds like Cinelog. And as far as I know CLog is Canon Log but not Cinelog.

Could you please give me one example combination of LUTs with the exact (!) names as they are officially labeled?

Something like: [INPUT]_BMD_FILM_4k_Cinelog-C ---> Koji_Arri_LogC_to_Rec709_2393

Just to clear up any confusion regarding which LUTs you are actually using. :)

Hope you can help, thanks in advance!

Maybe I got confused and in fact it was CLog, as Canon Log, which was the one I liked the most when applied to my footage. I'll check when I get home and confirm. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

bennyray1

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2014, 03:15:52 PM »
Hey guys,I just wanted to share my results with Koji luts using VisionLog through a ACR workflow..I like Davinci but because I can not afford the full package I do not have noise reduction, so I use ACR to apply VisionLog profile to my footage,noise reduction and adjustments in AE and apply Koji_Arri_LogC_to_Rec709_2393.cube to adjustment layer with utility.I just thought I would share that way people could experiment not only with Cinelog C-Log...hopefully we will have Cinelog C-Log soon for Speedgrade,but for now I was happy with the results using VisionLog.

beauchampy

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2014, 12:50:21 AM »
Sorry, still confused as I can't find any Cinelog labeled LUTs in my Koji folder.  :-\

I have Koji LUTs labeled CLog and Cineon but nothing else that sounds like Cinelog. And as far as I know CLog is Canon Log but not Cinelog.


Just to clarify. The Cinelog LUT I'm referring to isn't part of Koji, it's this:
http://www.cinelogdcp.com

Basically, for 5D Raw what I do is
5D Raw (BMD Film 4k in resolve) -> BMD Film 4k to Cinelog LUT -> Whatever Arri Alexa Koji LUT you want to use.

Now, if you were to do it without Cinelog, Koji recommend you use their Canon DSLR LUTs on 5D Raw footage and bring the saturation down a little.

For me, I prefer going the Cinelog route.

beauchampy

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2014, 12:53:14 AM »
Also I should point out that to get the Arri LogC luts you need Koji Log, not Koji DSLR..

DanHaag

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2014, 01:54:58 AM »
Just to clarify. The Cinelog LUT I'm referring to isn't part of Koji, it's this:
http://www.cinelogdcp.com

No confusion there, bought Cinelog a while ago.  ;) Your blog post is perfectly clear on what you did, my questions were solely pointed at beauchampy's workflow since there's
been some confusion with how LUTs are labeled in his description. But he answered that already, now I have better understanding of what he did. After doing my own tests with
Koji Color LOG and different LUTs/Settings, I prefer your workflow with Cinelog and Arri LUTs. Thanks again for sharing! :)

Now, if you were to do it without Cinelog, Koji recommend you use their Canon DSLR LUTs on 5D Raw footage and bring the saturation down a little.

I wrote them an email asking for their own ML raw workflow, here's the official answer:

Quote from: Koji Color
We should make this a bit clearer.  Our recommended workflow is:

- In Resolve, choose "BMDFilm" in the raw settings for both Color Space and Gamma.
- Apply one of the Koji BMDFilm to Rec.709 LUTs.

That's it - just one LUT.  I know it sounds strange to use BMDFilm since you didn't shoot on a Blackmagic camera, but it's 100% correct.

Tried it and it looks "ok" but it's no match for the way superior looking Cinelog route with the Arri LUTs.

baldavenger

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2014, 02:06:07 AM »
Gabe at CrumplePop hasn't a clue about luts.  Other people develop the products and his company sells them, but he's clueless as to how they really work.  He tries hard to bluff though.  If someone who is part of the actual Koji team could be contacted to discuss how best to work with Magic Lantern Raw then there could be progress.  Sadly that doofus Gabe is the public representation.  It's all way over his head.
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beauchampy

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2014, 07:58:50 PM »
Yeah, Gabe told me "We actually do recommend the Canon Rec709 LUTs for ML Raw footage."

Which looks the worst processing method IMO - better to go with BMD film and BMD Koji LUTs or even better, Cinelog.

beauchampy

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2014, 02:38:53 PM »
Just updated with two videos using the Cinelog + Koji plus details of workflow:
http://www.paulbeauchamp.co.uk/blog/2014/10/15/pairing-magic-lantern-raw-with-koji-color

DanHaag

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2014, 06:39:50 PM »
Thanks for sharing, mate!

DeafEyeJedi

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2014, 07:52:09 AM »
Thanks for sharing @beauchampy -- however I've purchased the Cinelog LUT's as well as the Koji DSLR (so I do not have the Arri Alexa Koji LUT's) does this mean I'm basically SOL and would need to order the Koji Log?

Anxious to try this workflow of yours w Davinci Resolve... perhaps there's another similar way of doing this with so called limited LUT's that I currently have?

Prosperous New Years to everyone!
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beauchampy

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2015, 10:47:48 AM »
Thanks for sharing @beauchampy -- however I've purchased the Cinelog LUT's as well as the Koji DSLR (so I do not have the Arri Alexa Koji LUT's) does this mean I'm basically SOL and would need to order the Koji Log?

Anxious to try this workflow of yours w Davinci Resolve... perhaps there's another similar way of doing this with so called limited LUT's that I currently have?

Prosperous New Years to everyone!

Yeah you need Koji Log to get the Arri Log-c LUTs, they don't come with Koji DSLR - you can't achieve my workflow without them.

DeafEyeJedi

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2015, 11:07:38 PM »
Figured that out.

Thanks!
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DanHaag

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2015, 12:08:16 PM »
Used a similar workflow on the Mark III footage in a recent interview series. Worked great even under improvised circumstances. This here was graded in Reolve 11 with the latest version of BMDFilm to Cinelog -> white balance in raw tab -> basic color correction in first node -> a Koji Alexa LUT -> FilmConvert Pro 2 (with curves & grain turned off) -> some tracking masks for highlighting talent & blurring background.

The grade was basically done by Cinelog & Koji, everything else just minor compositing adjustments.


baldavenger

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2015, 04:54:06 PM »
The Koji Alexa luts are expecting footage in Alexa colorspace and Log-C gamma.  Cinelog is effectively Alexa colorspace, but the gamma is Cineon which is less compressed than Log-C, so applying the Koji Alexa luts to Cinelog will over stretch the gamma and lead to clipping and over-saturation.  There are additional transfer luts in the Cinelog package to convert Cinelog to Alexa Film Matrix Colorspace and Log-C gamma, from which point you can apply Alexa Log-C to Rec709 luts (for color balance and comparison) or Koji Alexa luts.  I tend to favour this approach.

On a side note, I wouldn't render out prores files with the conversion to Log-C as you will lose information in the image due to unnecessary over compression, but the conversion from Cinelog to Log-C and then on to Rec709 in 32bit float in Resolve should preserve the information.  Andy600 would know better if that is indeed the case.
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DanHaag

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2015, 10:28:00 PM »
I've used the Cinelog transfer LUT to Alexa Film Matrix, forgot to mention that indeed. - I never use proxy files anyway, it's all original CDNGs via MLVFSE until the grading is done and ready to be baked in.  ;)

It's a really nice and reliable workflow, didn't run into any problems at all.

Andy600

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2015, 10:47:29 PM »
You can certainly use the Log-C Koji luts with Cinelog-C as they are in the same colorspace (just with slightly different scaling). The difference will be in the strength of the tone curve and saturation because the Koji Log-C luts include an ARRI Log-C to Rec709 lut  - though I'm not sure it's normalized REC709.

You will likely need to add levels and saturation corrections after the Koji Lut to normalize the output to full or legal level REC709 plus any tweaks to midtone contrast you might want for a softer/harder look (but keep an eye on your scopes).

The Film Matrix is an alternative to using REC709 primaries. It rotates hues (slightly) to warmer tones and is a little less clinical looking than REC709 hues. It works wonders with skin tones and has really nice, film-like highlight saturation rolloff - just keep an eye on any deep reds though as they can veer towards orange. Blues can get a little lighter.

BTW, I'm working with Koji to produce a set of their luts that are optimized for Cinelog-C colorspace. More on that soon ;)
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

DanHaag

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Re: Koji Color Log + ML Raw
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2015, 12:19:18 AM »
BTW, I'm working with Koji to produce a set of their luts that are optimized for Cinelog-C colorspace. More on that soon ;)

Sounds amazing! Looking forward to that, hope other LUT developers team up with you as well!