Author Topic: UHS-I / SD cards investigation  (Read 145505 times)

theBilalFakhouri

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #675 on: July 10, 2021, 05:51:26 PM »
5D3:

192MHz and 240 MHz presets do work but it has same problem as some other DIGIC 5 cameras, it either switch to safe mode which is SDR50 @ 48 MHz, or the camera make the SD card inaccessible resulting in "Card full" issue when recording RAW video, or camera lock up or crash when trying to capture Still photo or record H.264 video with error message until you restart the camera by pulling the battery out

And these happens when camera try to make a read process to SD card (This is my guess, I talked about this earlier in this thread), as long as there is no reading happening, the presets just work:

5D3 113 @ 240 MHz in PLAY mode (Sandisk Extreme PRO UHS-I U3 170 MB/s):


Of course currently these presets are unpractical right now, How I made it work:

1- First you need an empty SD card, only ML files on it (Sometimes it works with some MLV files)
2- You need to apply the patch after the camera fully startup (after red led become off), applying the patch during startup won't work unless you are very lucky (because -I think- during camera startup there are reading processes happening like loading ML files into memory, or Canon firmware checking SD card content . . etc)

(What about trying these steps on EOS M, 240 MHz might work, but won't be practical, just for testing)

Well, when 240 MHz preset works you get:


~81 MB write speed in video mode :D

Who needs CF card? :P

-I didn't test it with CF card yet (with Card spanning), waiting the CF to arrive . .


You won't get anything from this post, further research is required . . but it's cool to showcase how 240 MHz preset would perform when it works.
700D 1.1.5 | no more ISOless LV err 8 / SDR104 @ 240 MHz - Constant! | Fixed Scrambled LiveView in Higher resolution | Real-Time correct framing in the Way

Grognard

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #676 on: July 11, 2021, 09:57:29 PM »


-I didn't test it with CF card yet (with Card spanning), waiting the CF to arrive . .


You won't get anything from this post, further research is required . . but it's cool to showcase how 240 MHz preset would perform when it works.

Great. Wait and see.
Does it mean you finally got a 5diii?

theBilalFakhouri

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #677 on: July 14, 2021, 02:10:46 AM »
It seems CF + SD card spanning maxes at ~150 MB/s (in PLAY mode) using all presets 160 MHz, 192 MHz and 240 MHz, so I think we hit memory limit here (is there a workaround for this?).

I couldn't test 192 MHz and 240 MHz in LiveView with card spanning I expect to be same as 160 MHz with card spanning which is maxes at ~135 MB/s in LiveView when recording RAW (uncompressed RAW, 23.976 FPS)
-Lossless compression make a bottleneck BTW due to extra processing/memory cycle, which make write speed with card spanning below 135 MB/s .


Does it mean you finally got a 5diii?

Yes, thanks to "unknown soldiers" who gave me the opportunity to get a 5D3 and work on it :) .
700D 1.1.5 | no more ISOless LV err 8 / SDR104 @ 240 MHz - Constant! | Fixed Scrambled LiveView in Higher resolution | Real-Time correct framing in the Way

Jonneh

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #678 on: July 15, 2021, 04:59:40 PM »
Yes, thanks to "unknown soldiers" who gave me the opportunity to get a 5D3 and work on it :) .

Just when I was thinking it was about time we pooled some resources to buy one, the soldier stepped forward. Good on him or her. Enjoy it! :-)

Regarding the stability issues with the faster overclocking presets, the explanation you propose is interesting. It would be a boon if there turns out to be a workaround, but only if the data rate bottleneck can be overcome, naturally.

Regarding this apparent 135/150 MB/s bottleneck (I'd noticed the 135 MB/s limit before when the total rate with a fast CF + SD didn't benefit from SD overclocking in terms of total data rate---doing so does give more equal write ratios, of course, which is good in itself, since the CF and SD cards have the same capacity. Good to know that it's due to the lossless compression overhead.), I suppose working around that might be a big ask, but I confess to major ignorance on the matter.

On this topic, I'm slightly confused about what you mean by there being a 150MB/s bottleneck in PLAY mode. Are you referring to a read bottleneck, or rather a write bottleneck with LiveView off, or perhaps something else?

Great stuff all around, either way!

mlrocks

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #679 on: July 28, 2021, 08:28:38 AM »
I just benchmarked my sd cards with different capacity in 650D. All sd cards are 170MB/s Sandisk Extreme Pro. There are two 64 GB, one 128 GB, one 256 GB. All were bought within a year. All of them were overclocked to 240 hz in the 650 D July 24, 2021 ML version.
The two 64 GB and one 128 GB cards benchmarked for one minute, and got the write speed of 60 MB/s, and the read speed of 70 MB/s. The 256 GB card got the write speed of 45 MB/s, and the read speed of 45 MB/s. Yet the 256 GB card could continuously record at 55-60 MB/s. When it was over 60 MB/s, then it could only record several seconds. Not sure if it is the card issue, or the benchmark module is not tuned for larger size cards like 256 GB or 512 GB.


Walter Schulz

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #680 on: July 28, 2021, 09:09:18 AM »
Benchmark doesn't care about card size. It won't even check for sufficient free space.
Your numbers for all your cards seems to be a bit low. Try a run in photo mode. And just for fun: What are the numbers you get benchmarking on your PC? Esp. for the 256 GB variety.

theBilalFakhouri

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #681 on: July 28, 2021, 12:11:17 PM »
Also try to format the cards in camera (Low level format) before running benchmarks to get constant write/read speed.
700D 1.1.5 | no more ISOless LV err 8 / SDR104 @ 240 MHz - Constant! | Fixed Scrambled LiveView in Higher resolution | Real-Time correct framing in the Way

mlrocks

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #682 on: July 28, 2021, 05:25:00 PM »
Benchmark doesn't care about card size. It won't even check for sufficient free space.
Your numbers for all your cards seems to be a bit low. Try a run in photo mode. And just for fun: What are the numbers you get benchmarking on your PC? Esp. for the 256 GB variety.

For the 256 gb card, I did overclocking to 240 hz, then formatted it at low level using the Canon Menu, then benchmarked using the 1 minute test in photo and video mode. In photo mode, I got read about 40 MB/s, write 36 MB/s. In video mode, for several times I consistently got 45 MB/s for read and write. Turning off modules like LUA EDMAC etc did not help.
On computer, using Sandisk card reader USB 3.1 (computer USB adapter may be just USB 2.0 or USB 3.0, but not USB 3.1.), the read speed was 160 MB/s consistently, the write speed was 98 MB/s consistently.
I can record continuously as long as the data flow was about 55 MB/s. Over 60 MB/s, it will record several seconds, then stop.

theBilalFakhouri

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #683 on: July 28, 2021, 06:02:12 PM »
Have you restarted the camera after selecting 240 Mhz preset?
700D 1.1.5 | no more ISOless LV err 8 / SDR104 @ 240 MHz - Constant! | Fixed Scrambled LiveView in Higher resolution | Real-Time correct framing in the Way

mlrocks

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #684 on: July 28, 2021, 09:30:49 PM »
Have you restarted the camera after selecting 240 Mhz preset?

Yes, I first chose the 240 Mhz preset, then restarted the camera. Then I reformatted the card in camera. The ML still worked after the low level in camera format.

Walter Schulz

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #685 on: July 28, 2021, 09:47:16 PM »
These are different things:
- ML will save its own data during format and write back. Has nothing to do with overclocking.

The numbers you get by benchmarking in cam are pretty low. You should get around the same numbers (or better) without overclocking.

mlrocks

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #686 on: July 28, 2021, 09:57:13 PM »
I just found out the root cause of this issue. I was in 650D crop new 2.35 1x3 1600x1800 mode, testing all these benchmark. Now I am in crop UHD 1x3 1280x2160 mode, benchmark showed 66 MB/s writing speed. So the benchmark is actually preset dependent.

Danne

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #687 on: July 28, 2021, 10:34:26 PM »
Turn off raw video and do the test in play mode.

mlrocks

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #688 on: July 29, 2021, 12:40:52 AM »
Turn off raw video and do the test in play mode.

Turn off raw video and in photo mode (play mode), mode: Play-Unk LCD, global draw: on, benchmark 1 minute test showed:
93 MB/s write
105 MB/s read

Turn off raw video and in photo mode (play mode), mode: Play-Unk LCD, global draw: off, benchmark 1 minute test showed:
94 MB/s write
106 MB/s read

mlrocks

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #689 on: July 29, 2021, 04:46:26 AM »
I just did a stress test checking how the overheating of the SD card overclocking at 240Mhz behaves on 650D.

In the old but reliable mode of movie crop, 10-bit color depth, 14-bit lossless compression, 1800x1012, AR 16:9, fps 29.97, dual ISO and auto ETTR on, global draw on, the 650D recorded with a green dot most of the time, the left time was orange, only at the beginning several seconds it was red.

At the ambient temperature of 20 C, the camera temperature went up to 50 C in the first 30 minutes, then maintained at 50 C for the rest of the time. With a 256 gb card, the recording time was continuous for 69 minutes totally. I changed the batteries and added another 64 gb card, to see how far the little 650D can go before shutting down due to overheating. After recording for about 5 minutes, the recording stopped automatically. I started it again, the temperature was still at 48 C. Another stop happened after 3 minutes' recording. Another stop happened after 2 minutes' recording. I started it again, then the camera recorded until this 64 gb card was full. The camera temperature was at 48 C. I changed to another 64 gb card, and hit the record button again. It was a 20-minutes continuous recording until the card was full. The camera temperature was still at 48 C.  In total, after going through three sd cards with a total capacity of 384 gb and about 100 minutes recording time in a continuous raw recording mode, the 650D temperature was maintained at 50 C. With live view on all the time, the camera took 2 hours to go back from 50 C to 42 C. It may take several hours more to go back to below 30 C.

It seems that the camera has an embedded cooling system within kicks in when the camera temperature reaches 50 C. Heat may store somewhere in the camera body relative safely and can be released gradually after the camera is turned off. This kind of temperature control is good enough for an 8-hour full day shooting when sd card overclocking is turned on.

Walter Schulz

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #690 on: July 29, 2021, 09:34:32 AM »
"Embedded cooling system" is a bit misleading. It's just a temperature threshold and cam turns off if overstepped. No timer involved as in EOS R series, for example.
Heat cannot be "stored" inside a camera. Heat goes from "hot" to "cold" by radiation, conduction and convection until equilibrium is established.

mlrocks

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Re: UHS-I / SD cards investigation
« Reply #691 on: July 29, 2021, 03:45:26 PM »
"Embedded cooling system" is a bit misleading. It's just a temperature threshold and cam turns off if overstepped. No timer involved as in EOS R series, for example.
Heat cannot be "stored" inside a camera. Heat goes from "hot" to "cold" by radiation, conduction and convection until equilibrium is established.

The camera maintained at 50 C for about 1 hour recording raw without shutting down. If there is no way to transfer the heat from the cpu, like fans in a desktop computer, the camera should have shut down several minutes after it reached 50 C. Or because the ambient temperature was 20 C? Probably someone can do a similar stress test under the noon sun to check how long the camera can record when the ambient temperature is high, like 35-40 C.