Author Topic: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames  (Read 22068 times)

goran

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5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« on: June 25, 2014, 05:40:09 PM »
Hello,

I thought I might report something I encountered today.

I was shooting with 5D mark III 1.2.3, latest daily build from 21 of June with .mlv Raw. 64gb Komputerbay x1000 cards.
I used 2 external monitors - one for myself, the other for the focus puller. The first monitor connects to the camera and outputs the signal to second monitor.

When shooting with the monitors after about 30 sec. a frame would skip and recording would stop. Without using monitors it doesn't happen! I can record until the card is full! I tried also the nightly from 23 of May and it behaved the same. With monitors max 30-ish sec. of recording before skipping a frame. Without no problems what so ever.

When I switched to .raw instead of .mlv I could shoot without any problems with both monitors connected.

My question is:

1. Why? What might have been wrong? What might be the cause to the problem?
2. What can I do to help solve this problem? What info/testing would you need me to do to so I can be of help?

All best,
Goran

budafilms

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2014, 07:56:23 AM »
Hello,

I thought I might report something I encountered today.

I was shooting with 5D mark III 1.2.3, latest daily build from 21 of June with .mlv Raw. 64gb Komputerbay x1000 cards.
I used 2 external monitors - one for myself, the other for the focus puller. The first monitor connects to the camera and outputs the signal to second monitor.

When shooting with the monitors after about 30 sec. a frame would skip and recording would stop. Without using monitors it doesn't happen! I can record until the card is full! I tried also the nightly from 23 of May and it behaved the same. With monitors max 30-ish sec. of recording before skipping a frame. Without no problems what so ever.

When I switched to .raw instead of .mlv I could shoot without any problems with both monitors connected.

My question is:

1. Why? What might have been wrong? What might be the cause to the problem?
2. What can I do to help solve this problem? What info/testing would you need me to do to so I can be of help?

All best,
Goran

Can you try with one monitor, and after, the other one?

pobox

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2014, 10:12:58 AM »
You should change the HDMI output to 24fps in the Canon menu. In auto, 50i or 60i it is not reliable at all.

pompeiisneaks

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2014, 06:23:39 PM »
My random guess is that you're overloading the speed of the board that does the I/O and therefore pobox's suggestion seems to make sense, if you're sending less data at 24p it would reduce load on the bus.  But that is a guess coming from a more pc hardware level, not knowing the deep specs on the way the canon does I/O.

goran

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 10:34:37 PM »
Can you try with one monitor, and after, the other one?

I tried and the result was the same.
The HDMI output in Canon menu was set to AUTO.
I set it up to 24 now and will check out after the weeked if that changes things.
The intersting issue though is that it happens only with .mlv. With .raw all is fine.
Anyway, once I check it with HDMI output at 24 I'll report back.

All best,
Goran

budafilms

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2014, 10:52:46 AM »
Ok, I will try tomorrow with my monitors and share the result.
But I have MLV problems with out connecting bt HDMI, sometimes skipped frames and sometimes not. That´s why I insist to work with RAW.
I have two Komputer Bay 64 GB 1000x.


Midphase

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2014, 07:33:04 PM »
I assume you've switched off Global Draw, and possibly even audio recording?

About 2 weeks ago, we recorded with two external HDMI monitors connected (well...chained) and shot about 700Gb of footage without a single dropped frame or corrupted frame. The camera was incredibly stable, then again it's on 1.1.3 and not 1.2.3.

Sthirasukha

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2014, 11:56:33 PM »
I have the same problem with my 5D mark III 1.1.3 with the latest nightly 2014 June 26 5D113. No skipping frame when I don't use the HDMI monitor but sometimes (hard to say when exactly) I have skipped frames when the HDMI Monitor is plugged. Is there any special set up to avoid this? (And I thought it could be worth with the 5D123 firmware that's why I didn't change the Canon firmware for the moment).

And I have another new issue: when I fill up the card (Lexar 64 Go x1000 exFat), I have a message saying: Recording stopped: Card/camera really exFat? On the older nightly builds I never had this message. Someone have an idea?

budafilms

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2014, 01:00:24 AM »
I tried and the result was the same.
The HDMI output in Canon menu was set to AUTO.
I set it up to 24 now and will check out after the weeked if that changes things.
The intersting issue though is that it happens only with .mlv. With .raw all is fine.
Anyway, once I check it with HDMI output at 24 I'll report back.

All best,
Goran

I did the test.
Using MLV connected by HDMI, I get 1 minute to 1:30, and skip frame using 1.2.3 - Komputerbay 1000x and Mll in SD card, CANON Menu HDMI Mirror.
Using RAW connected I don´t have any problem.

The other problem is you can´t watch ML menu values when you are connected and REC in the Viewfinder or Monitors.

When you set in CANON Menu No Mirror HDMI, you have only 720 or less, and not image in the view finder.

budafilms

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2014, 01:02:23 AM »
I have the same problem with my 5D mark III 1.1.3 with the latest nightly 2014 June 26 5D113. No skipping frame when I don't use the HDMI monitor but sometimes (hard to say when exactly) I have skipped frames when the HDMI Monitor is plugged. Is there any special set up to avoid this? (And I thought it could be worth with the 5D123 firmware that's why I didn't change the Canon firmware for the moment).

And I have another new issue: when I fill up the card (Lexar 64 Go x1000 exFat), I have a message saying: Recording stopped: Card/camera really exFat? On the older nightly builds I never had this message. Someone have an idea?

Check if you set 4GB EXFAT in the canon Menu. I get the same message when I put it ON.
I have the same problem by HDMI, using Komputerbay, explained above.

Sthirasukha

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2014, 05:40:38 PM »
@ budafilms: you mean check if 4GB ExFat is set on the ML menu (Raw menu) not Canon menu, don't you? In ML menu, if 4GB ExFat is OFF it doesn't work for me even without HDMI monitor. So I always use this option with my ExFat CF card. Does it ùake sense?

@ Midphase: You said: "About 2 weeks ago, we recorded with two external HDMI monitors connected (well...chained) and shot about 700Gb of footage without a single dropped frame or corrupted frame. The camera was incredibly stable, then again it's on 1.1.3 and not 1.2.3."
What nightly builds did you use or do you think there are special set up options that can help?

Midphase

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2014, 08:05:48 PM »
The build I used was from May 16. I suspect it's not the build but the firmware thing. I don't think 1.2.3 is stable yet for rock solid performance.

If you want absolute, no BS, rock solid performance on the 5D3, I think it's 1.1.3 and .raw. Everything else starts etching away at performance and stability (although in my experience .mlv did fine, but for instance when I use .mlv I need to turn off Global Draw while with .raw I could keep Global Draw on without any issues.).

budafilms

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2014, 08:56:22 PM »
@ budafilms: you mean check if 4GB ExFat is set on the ML menu (Raw menu) not Canon menu, don't you? In ML menu, if 4GB ExFat is OFF it doesn't work for me even without HDMI monitor. So I always use this option with my ExFat CF card. Does it ùake sense?

@ Midphase: You said: "About 2 weeks ago, we recorded with two external HDMI monitors connected (well...chained) and shot about 700Gb of footage without a single dropped frame or corrupted frame. The camera was incredibly stable, then again it's on 1.1.3 and not 1.2.3."
What nightly builds did you use or do you think there are special set up options that can help?

Yes, ML Menu. Canon Menu don't have this option.

goran

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2014, 07:24:05 AM »
Hello All,

So after I run some test earlier here are my findings.

First what I’m running:

5D Mark III
Firmware 1.2.3
Nightly Build from 21st of June 2014
Komputerbay 64gb x1000 CF
ML is running from SD Sandisk

In all tests camera’s output in HDMI was set to 24fps because I was told that Auto and 50i and 60i are unreliable with ML.

Test 1 - .mlv, NO monitors, Global Draw ON, LV Digic Peaking ON - All OK. Shoots until card full.
Test 2 - .mlv, TWO Monitors, Global Draw ON, LV Digic Peaking ON - Dropped frame after 1 min.
Test 3 - .mlv, TWO monitors, Global Draw OFF (only in camera raw settings), LV Digic Peaking ON - Dropped frame after 1:18 min.
Test 4 - .mlv, TWO monitors, Global Draw OFF (in all menus), LV Digic Peaking ON - Dropped frame after 2 min.
Test 5 - .mlv, TWO monitors, Global Draw OFF (in all menus), LV Digic Peaking OFF - Dropped frame after 2:46 min.
Test 6 - .raw, TWO monitors, Global Draw ON, LV Digic Peaking ON - All OK. Shoots until card full.

I haven’t tried testing .mlv without sound because that kind of beats the purpose of .mlv in my opinion.

I did all of the above tests with one monitor as well, and the findings were similar.

So my conclusion from this is:

1. If you’re shooting .mlv with external monitors, turn everything off to maximise the recording time, but still .mlv at least in my tests on firmware 1.2.3 isn’t ready for any critical work IF WORKING WITH EXTERNAL MONITORS. Working without external monitors is fine and there were no glitches I encountered. I tested 4 cards one after another and findings were similar.

2. .raw is very steady and works really well WITH OR WITHOUT EXTERNAL MONITORS, so I’d suggest sticking to .raw for any critical work if you must use external monitors. Once again, I tested 4 different cards one after another with the same findings.

If there’s any information I can provide to the developers what so ever I’d be glad if I could be of any help. Unfortunately I don’t have programming skills.

All best,
Goran

a1ex

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2014, 08:28:10 AM »
Do you mind repeating the same tests with the corresponding 1.1.3 build?

There were some reports that 1.2.3 might be a little slower than 1.1.3, but didn't check the speed differences on my camera yet.

budafilms

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2014, 08:34:26 AM »
Hello All,

So after I run some test earlier here are my findings.

First what I’m running:

5D Mark III
Firmware 1.2.3
Nightly Build from 21st of June 2014
Komputerbay 64gb x1000 CF
ML is running from SD Sandisk

In all tests camera’s output in HDMI was set to 24fps because I was told that Auto and 50i and 60i are unreliable with ML.

Test 1 - .mlv, NO monitors, Global Draw ON, LV Digic Peaking ON - All OK. Shoots until card full.
Test 2 - .mlv, TWO Monitors, Global Draw ON, LV Digic Peaking ON - Dropped frame after 1 min.
Test 3 - .mlv, TWO monitors, Global Draw OFF (only in camera raw settings), LV Digic Peaking ON - Dropped frame after 1:18 min.
Test 4 - .mlv, TWO monitors, Global Draw OFF (in all menus), LV Digic Peaking ON - Dropped frame after 2 min.
Test 5 - .mlv, TWO monitors, Global Draw OFF (in all menus), LV Digic Peaking OFF - Dropped frame after 2:46 min.
Test 6 - .raw, TWO monitors, Global Draw ON, LV Digic Peaking ON - All OK. Shoots until card full.

I haven’t tried testing .mlv without sound because that kind of beats the purpose of .mlv in my opinion.

I did all of the above tests with one monitor as well, and the findings were similar.

So my conclusion from this is:

1. If you’re shooting .mlv with external monitors, turn everything off to maximise the recording time, but still .mlv at least in my tests on firmware 1.2.3 isn’t ready for any critical work IF WORKING WITH EXTERNAL MONITORS. Working without external monitors is fine and there were no glitches I encountered. I tested 4 cards one after another and findings were similar.

2. .raw is very steady and works really well WITH OR WITHOUT EXTERNAL MONITORS, so I’d suggest sticking to .raw for any critical work if you must use external monitors. Once again, I tested 4 different cards one after another with the same findings.

If there’s any information I can provide to the developers what so ever I’d be glad if I could be of any help. Unfortunately I don’t have programming skills.

All best,
Goran

great work!
I supposed you are setting 1920x1080, right?

 In my case, MLV, without monitor, after first two shots that sometimes skip in one minute or 10 seconds, its a problem with build June 26.
I understand that MLV have more possibilities, but is degrading the trust of ML. That's why I use RAW.

I checked with other 5D with other cards and I have same results.

I hope Devs can stabilise MLV soon, and get external monitor with the menu in the viewfinder when you are shooting.

Budders

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2014, 01:54:08 PM »
Last month on the short film I shot with .mlv on ML, I worked off of the May 6th build for the 1.2.3, and using a Zacuto EVF chained to another 7" monitor, I had no issues with dropped frames, however I would occasionally get an error message when I ended the recording about some issue during the recording (my apologies for not having the specific message, it was a while back), and while the file was still there intact, I would have an occasional frame with some horizontal lines of "static" or corruption across the frame, for only a single frame. This wasnt a big issue as most of my shoot was done with minimal movement and cutting out on frame here or there wasn't noticeable. However I'd be worried about this on something larger scale project.

I haven't been around much to see about the issues found with hooking up an external HDMI monitor or multiple ones, but based on what I'm reading here, if we are planning to use multiple HDMI monitors then for the time being the safest bet would be to use the .raw module and record dual system sound with a separate recorder for audio and sync it in post, and keep .mlv temporarily for experimentation/none external monitor shoots?

I'd love to try and help out more with this, unfortunately I'm heavy in preproduction on a film that shoots next week so my time is relatively limited, but I'll touch base back here and see if I can provide any helpful info. Just wanted to clarify with those who have been involved in testing this issue, thanks!

goran

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2014, 04:59:58 PM »
@A1ex
Unfortunately I can't test it with 1.1.3 because my day job is a fashion photographer and I'm daily tethering the camera with Capture One 7.2.2 and OS X 10.9.3. We've found that tethering is more reliable with 1.2.3 across all of our 5D MK III in the studio so we've upgraded them all. Since I'm shooting every day, it would be almost impossible to downgrade a production camera I rely daily on because that's where my money is. If I can find one that we don't use I'll downgrade it and perform the tests, but currently during the "season" it's almost impossible. I'll try my best to find one we don't "need" though.

@Budafilms
Yes I'm shooting 1920x1080

@Budders
How long where your takes? As per my tests under some conditions I was able to shoot for around 2-2.30 min. so if you're takes were shorter than this, you probably wouldn't ever notice there's a problem.

All best,
Goran

Midphase

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2014, 06:38:02 PM »
How long where your takes? As per my tests under some conditions I was able to shoot for around 2-2.30 min. so if you're takes were shorter than this, you probably wouldn't ever notice there's a problem.


If you're shooting very long takes, and your built-in monitor is also active, may I suggest that there could be an overheating situation at work?

goran

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2014, 09:37:55 PM »
If you're shooting very long takes, and your built-in monitor is also active, may I suggest that there could be an overheating situation at work?

I wasn't shooting very long takes. Around 1-2 min.
I don't think it's heat related since after skipped frame if I immediately change to .raw it works just fine. The few sec it takes to activate .raw and deactivate .mlv is not enough time for the sensor to cool down. Something else must be going on.

Goran

Sthirasukha

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2014, 10:32:34 PM »
I still have the 1.1.3 on my 5DMKIII and I hope it can help.
I did some tests with
— Lexar 64GB x1000 and SD 95MB/s card with ML firmware Nightly Builds 2014june26.5D113
— a Zacuto EVF HDMI monitor
— 25 fps 1920x1080
Result :
— MLV recording: no particular issues with Global Draw On (Focus peaking, Zebras, Cropmarks)
— MLV recording + HDMI Monitor + with Global Draw On: dropped frame (the more you put options on Global Draw, the more I have dropped frame).
No Raw test for the moment also because the Raw_rec module has disappeared in that builds.

And with that nightly builds I still have the same issue that I never had before when I fill the CF card. I have the same error message: "Recording stopped: Card/camera really exFat?" and on the CF card, the last MLV file is different from the others: example
M30-2048.MLV
M30-2049.MLV
And the last: M30-2050.MLV with a series of M30-2050.M00, .M01,....... M30-2050.M08 (52 bytes each).

Sthirasukha

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2014, 10:33:59 PM »
I forgot:
 — MLV recording + HDMI Monitor + with Global Draw Off: no dropped frame for the moment.

richy1

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2014, 09:26:32 AM »
Has this thread gone cold or has no solution been found?
Myself and my colleague both have the problem and are just prepping for a big shoot where we need sound ON.
Nightly Build July16th - 5D Mark3 -FW 1.2.3
We get skipped frames when HDMI cable is connected after about 1 Minute. The the camera stops recording. Two cameras, TV-Logic monitors, same problem. Without the monitor no problem. Even with Global Draw off we get skipped frames after 1 minute.
Please let us know if anyone knows how to solve this.
Thanks
Richy

richy1

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2014, 01:14:07 PM »
Hi there,

I HAVE THE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM!!!

It is the Lexar card! If you have a Lexar 64gb 1000x UDMA 7 card with max. 95mb/s write speed it is too slow for long MLV takes with Sound or when using the external monitor. I had the exact same problem on two different cameras. But when I exchanged the card for the faster Sandisk 160mb/S read and 150mb/s write UDMA7 64gb the problem went away.
But you have to turn ON EXFat >4gb in ML menu. Otherwise the MLV files span to 10+ and then you get an Error saying "Cannot read file. Card full?" The camera can only span to maximum 10 MLV files. It will break off at about 42gb when you don't turn that on.
Best wishes and happy shooting!

goran

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Re: 5D Mark III .mlv raw with external monitor skipped frames
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2014, 08:38:38 AM »
Hi there,

I HAVE THE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM!!!

It is the Lexar card! If you have a Lexar 64gb 1000x UDMA 7 card with max. 95mb/s write speed it is too slow for long MLV takes with Sound or when using the external monitor. I had the exact same problem on two different cameras. But when I exchanged the card for the faster Sandisk 160mb/S read and 150mb/s write UDMA7 64gb the problem went away.
But you have to turn ON EXFat >4gb in ML menu. Otherwise the MLV files span to 10+ and then you get an Error saying "Cannot read file. Card full?" The camera can only span to maximum 10 MLV files. It will break off at about 42gb when you don't turn that on.
Best wishes and happy shooting!

Hi Richy,

I'll try with a faster card and check it out.

Goran