"No Budget" feature film looking for best DSLR cam for RAW capture

[aace]

Well if we don't know that exFat caused the problem or fat32, and exFat allows unlimited file lengths, I think it's the better option. Thoughts?

I don't see the point to using exfat. The files are split in camera but the camera will continue to recording until you stop it or the card fills up. When you open the MLV file it will playback all of the split files as if they were one large file. I use MLRawViewer to playback and encode my raw files. MLRawViewer allows you to convert MLV/RAW/DNG files to ProRes (on mac/windows) or you can just extract the DNG files to separate folders. 

I uploaded a video to Vimeo showing one of the issues with MLRawViewer here:

. The issue I had was the highlights, for an intentionally over exposed shot, weren't encoded properly. The highlights simply made the clip unusable. Baldand, the developer for MLRawViewer, got a hold of the video and is working to fix that issue. The great thing about MLRawViewer is that it can batch encode all your raw files to ProRes, drastically reducing the file size and allowing you to edit. It does take some time to encode but you can think of it somewhat like dailies for you film nerds. It made 782GB of raw video to 230GB of ProRes video.

[ariaelf]

I just came back from a interview a few hours ago and on my 5D Mark2 @1872x936 24p+audio with Lexar 1000x 64GB shot 15,419 frames = 10.71 Minutes
And 7 Minutes (28GB) on the 32GB card . All in with File splitting to a total of 77GB with the 15,419 was 45GB alone.
Crop mode is 3X your focal length  e.g. 30mm=90mm So yes you 1.6 crop lens will work just fine.
And in crop mode you can do 2k (2048x852 continuous @ 24p)

Cool - so then why is the exFat capability such an important factor? I'm confused... if the 5Dmk2 can shoot long takes either way... hmmm.....

If a 30 ends up being a 90, how the heck am I supposed to get a nice wide angle without buying new lenses? :/ That's what I've been saying. Also I know that some of my lenses are specifically incompatible with full-frame sensor DSLRs, they were made for 1.6x crop cameras and mounts.

[ariaelf]

I'm not quite sure why you even posted here. Go back and read your own original post before you get your panties in a bunch and tell me to grow up.

Nowhere in your original post do you mention your camera budget, and just because you're making a no-budget $10k feature, doesn't necessarily imply that you don't have some other money saved up with which to buy your gear (or perhaps know a DP or two with their own set up).

If you're not sure, feel free to leave the conversation at any time. I don't know how many times I have to say which cameras are completely out of the budget in this thread, before it sinks in that no secret stash of money, or amazing free DP's are waiting helpfully around the corner.

Oh and my panties are just fine, thank-you for checking.

[ariaelf]

I don't see the point to using exfat. The files are split in camera but the camera will continue to recording until you stop it or the card fills up. When you open the MLV file it will playback all of the split files as if they were one large file. I use MLRawViewer to playback and encode my raw files. MLRawViewer allows you to convert MLV/RAW/DNG files to ProRes (on mac/windows) or you can just extract the DNG files to separate folders. 

I uploaded a video to Vimeo showing one of the issues with MLRawViewer here:

. The issue I had was the highlights, for an intentionally over exposed shot, weren't encoded properly. The highlights simply made the clip unusable. Baldand, the developer for MLRawViewer, got a hold of the video and is working to fix that issue. The great thing about MLRawViewer is that it can batch encode all your raw files to ProRes, drastically reducing the file size and allowing you to edit. It does take some time to encode but you can think of it somewhat like dailies for you film nerds. It made 782GB of raw video to 230GB of ProRes video.

Well I look forward to giving it a try myself and seeing how it all works! Curious - why the need for an extra piece of software? Doesn't PremierePro natively support RAW files at this point?

[aace]

Well I look forward to giving it a try myself and seeing how it all works! Curious - why the need for an extra piece of software? Doesn't PremierePro natively support RAW files at this point?

Premiere supports DNG files yes. You will still need software to convert the mlv/raw files to DNG in order to use them. If you're going the DNG route, you will need extra software to extract the DNGs. If you're going for native mlv/raw into Premiere you will still need extra software to import mlv/raw to Premiere. Magic Lantern's raw files are not supported in Premiere without plugins. Either way you will need extra software. I don't want to come off as rude but if you didn't know that you really should dig a little deeper to fully understand what you're committing to.

[ariaelf]

I don't want to come off as rude but if you didn't know that you really should dig a little deeper to fully understand what you're committing to.

What exactly do you think I'm doing here, talking to peeps like you on the ML forums? LoL

There is a first time for everything. It's my first time with RAW.

[aace]

What exactly do you think I'm doing here, talking to peeps like you on the ML forums? LoL

There is a first time for everything. It's my first time with RAW.

Fair enough. I'll tell you the Magic Lantern raw workflow is not as straight forward as Black Magic's Cinema cameras workflow but the quality of the footage definitely holds up and is certainly worth it. I highly recommend you start testing the workflow now with your 60D to get a feel for what you'll be working with. In your spare time check out this video too:

(Magic Lantern - RAW - Workflow Tutorial). This workflow involves extracting the DNGs from the mlv/raw files. I'm not a huge fan of the DNG workflow but it's really up to the editor.

I have both the 60D and 7D and both are equipped with the Mosaic Engineers anti-aliasing filters you were talking about. I'll tell you that tracking focus does get a little harder when you use that filter. The minimum focusing distance changes because you're adding more glass in front of the sensor. It does however eliminate most of the aliasing problems.

Like I also mentioned if you're going to be shooting long takes, there is that possibility that you'll lose that take. You seem to already know that's possible, so no need to beat that dead horse again. I haven't shot 10 minutes straight yet but now I'm curious to see if it is reliable.

[ariaelf]

You bet!

Thanks for those points about the filters, and other details. Good to know.

Recently installed ML RAW on both my 60D's and am about to test it out and see how it all works in post as you suggest. I've also been looking at RAW short films and tests shot on the 7D online, and reading on the workflows that different people used. Seem to be quite a few ways to get it done. People have used the DNG files, RAWMagic, ProRes422HQ.... all kinds of things. And then of course a wide variety of color correcting & color grading software and editors. What's your favorite way to do it?

[Steven]

Why do you want to shoot raw?

[ariaelf]

Why do you want to shoot raw?

LOLZ.

[Audionut]

LOLZ may be impressive to 12 year olds.  But it does not add useful content to the discussion.

[ariaelf]

Neither does stating the obvious.

Asking someone why they want to shoot RAW in the LM RAW forum is a total troll move.

[Audionut]

It would seem obvious as to why you want to shoot raw, yes.  But apparently you are incapable of giving the benefit of doubt.

What is this "LM RAW" forum you speak of?  Unless I'm missing something obvious, this is the General Chat section, of the Magic Lantern forums!

[ariaelf]

It would seem obvious as to why you want to shoot raw, yes.  But apparently you are incapable of giving the benefit of doubt.

What is this "LM RAW" forum you speak of?  Unless I'm missing something obvious, this is the General Chat section, of the Magic Lantern forums!

My original post was in the LM RAW forum. Then it was moved by a moderator to the General Chat. Odd.

[aace]

People have used the DNG files, RAWMagic, ProRes422HQ.... all kinds of things. And then of course a wide variety of color correcting & color grading software and editors. What's your favorite way to do it?

I prefer working with video files that I can play outside of the editor. So ProRes or Cineform are my preferred way of editing.

[aace]

Also, Audionut asked what is "LM Raw". He was referring to the misspelling of the abbreviated ML as in Magic Lantern, not Lantern Magic.

[ariaelf]

I prefer working with video files that I can play outside of the editor. So ProRes or Cineform are my preferred way of editing.

Good points, I'll keep that in mind!

[ariaelf]

Has anyone here had a chance to use both the 50D and the 7D with ML? I'm curious to know what the differences are, for such a huge price difference. I understand there is no audio recording on the 50D, but that's not an issue for me - film sound is always recorded separately anyway.

[ariaelf]

Also, Audionut asked what is "LM Raw". He was referring to the misspelling of the abbreviated ML as in Magic Lantern, not Lantern Magic.

Bust jecause I get things bass ackwards sometimes, doesn't mean I dave hyslexia....

[Kharak]

To answer your question regarding ExFat and Fat32. It was an issue when ML RAW was first introduced cause then you were limited to 4gb clips.

The only difference between ExFat and Fat32 today, is that Exfat makes one huge file and Fat32 splits them up in 4gb files. Which is no issue at all, because all RAW or MLV processors today will automatically combine the 4gb files in to one file before extracting the DNGs.

Then you can delete the split files and keep the combined one to better keep track of your originals.


Here is a tip for you Aria. Start working with ML Raw now on your 60D! You seriously do not want to start a shoot with ML Raw without having experienced the quirks and bugs first... You need to be in the shit a couple of times so that you know what to do if (when) ML suddenly locks your camera.

The workflow is hard and slow, but it is worth it. Learn it.

[Audionut]

Moving this back to the raw recording section, as the OP has advised she is more concerned about the raw recording aspect, then which camera to buy aspect.

[ariaelf]

To answer your question regarding ExFat and Fat32. It was an issue when ML RAW was first introduced cause then you were limited to 4gb clips.

The only difference between ExFat and Fat32 today, is that Exfat makes one huge file and Fat32 splits them up in 4gb files. Which is no issue at all, because all RAW or MLV processors today will automatically combine the 4gb files in to one file before extracting the DNGs.

Then you can delete the split files and keep the combined one to better keep track of your originals.

THANK-YOU for explaining that. Now I understand...

Okay, I am still curious though as to whether the 7D has ExFat or not, because I have seen two spreadsheets on the forums (one in the "current capabilities" thread, which states the 7D *does* have ExFat) and this one, which states it *does not* have ExFat... which is it??

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgQ2MOkAZTFHdFFIcFp1d0R5TzVPTVJXOEVyUndteGc#gid=5

It seems to me that having one huge file for a long take, as opposed to a bunch of little ones would be less confusing, even though they will eventually all be combined. Although on the other hand, maybe ExFat is more "buggy" and therefore should be avoided. What are the current recommendations?

Here is a tip for you Aria. Start working with ML Raw now on your 60D! You seriously do not want to start a shoot with ML Raw without having experienced the quirks and bugs first... You need to be in the shit a couple of times so that you know what to do if (when) ML suddenly locks your camera.

The workflow is hard and slow, but it is worth it. Learn it.

You bet - I just wanted to have some ballpark of "best practices" for ML, and a better idea of which camera would be suitable for this project and budget, before making more costly mistakes. It's a shame to have bought two EOS 60D's with ML installed, and only then realize the recording limit is all of six seconds.... not exactly workable for a feature film.

I'm still not sure whether a 50D would be sufficient, or a 7D would be better. I guess the continuous recording resolution is a bit less on the 50D, and no audio track with RAW (don't need it) so any other negatives for the 50D? Perhaps it could be a "B cam" to the 7D when we need two cameras shooting at once. A used 50D is probably half the price of a used 7D.   

I have been gearing up to be able to handle RAW, with a new video card, two 4TB external hard drives, just ordered the Transcend USB 3.0 Super Speed Multi-Card Reader, and two Komputerbay 64GB CF 1000X 150MB/s Extreme Speed UDMA 7 cards. Currently I only have USB 2.0 on my computer so that will need to be upgraded as well, or we'll be transferring files all day after shooting

I'll be testing the workflow with the 60D while waiting for the 7D(?) to arrive.

PS. What *DO* you do when ML locks your camera Kharak?

[Frank7D]

PS. What *DO* you do when ML locks your camera Kharak?

Take out the batteries.

[Audionut]

When in doubt, take the battery out.

I'm not sure why exFAT has suddenly earned a reputation as being less reliable.  AFAIK, there has only been 1 reported issue with exFAT, and that being when recording over 100GB in a single file.
exFAT vs FAT32 is a minor post processing issue (if you could even call it that, IMO).  The performance of either, in camera, is identical.  Personally, I would not base any purchasing decision on this.

You're in the market for 2 cameras, correct?
Looking at the spreadsheet, it would appear that the 50D has slightly less maximum writing speed, and less resolution.  However, they both use CF cards.  Considering that you are budget conscious, you may consider purchasing 1 of either camera.  The 7D for the slightly better feature set, and the 50D as a good solid well priced backup/secondary.

[ariaelf]

When in doubt, take the battery out.

I'm not sure why exFAT has suddenly earned a reputation as being less reliable.  AFAIK, there has only been 1 reported issue with exFAT, and that being when recording over 100GB in a single file.
exFAT vs FAT32 is a minor post processing issue (if you could even call it that, IMO).  The performance of either, in camera, is identical.  Personally, I would not base any purchasing decision on this.

You're in the market for 2 cameras, correct?
Looking at the spreadsheet, it would appear that the 50D has slightly less maximum writing speed, and less resolution.  However, they both use CF cards.  Considering that you are budget conscious, you may consider purchasing 1 of either camera.  The 7D for the slightly better feature set, and the 50D as a good solid well priced backup/secondary.

Yes, I agree - that's exactly what I was leaning towards.

This other spreadsheet is also floating around... and it has different figures. Which one is the accurate one? Quite a few differences in the 7D row.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgQ2MOkAZTFHdFFIcFp1d0R5TzVPTVJXOEVyUndteGc#gid=5

*EDIT* Okay, maybe that's the same spreadsheet but the image for it was saved from earlier, so a number of values have changed. The 7D went from red to blue...

I have read a number of things about exFat on these forums, some saying it caused problems, other saying it seemed to improve the write speed of the camera. Somewhere in the middle there must be the truth...

But then, is it even possible to use exFat formatted cards on the 7D? The charts don't agree. Someone give me a straight answer... (and no of course, the purchasing decision won't be based on that at all. Just curious.)