Author Topic: Apertus Axiom Beta  (Read 300263 times)

vroem

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #200 on: October 10, 2014, 10:51:54 AM »
Nice to know that the 35mm sensor is the same one (allegedly) used in Blackmagic's Production Camera and URSA. So we already have somewhat of a reference about it's capabilities.

Pelican

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #201 on: October 10, 2014, 12:33:58 PM »
For those who missed to contribute:
"The official campaign has ended successfully, but we will keep the campaign open for latecomers to claim your AXIOM Beta for a € 500 development contribution for another two weeks (until October 23rd).
Pay 500€ now for development and est. € 2.300 due at Ship of AXIOM Beta Super35 (using CMV12000 image sensor) 5th Batch - Limited time offer!"

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera
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nikfreak

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #202 on: October 10, 2014, 05:19:36 PM »
Looks like no amount limit on the last batch! Maybe another 50k to grab??  8)
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KurtAugust

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #203 on: October 10, 2014, 08:01:40 PM »
Sebastian: seeing how many orders you now have, does this mean you will have better means for machining high quality parts? I expect a lot of people are expecting something much sturdier than a project box. So plastic would probably disappoint a lot of people. Let other companies do that... Please make it strong and try to get cable protection in the basic design. That's one of the things that freak my out when shooting with a dslr now, if you don't want to add another bulky cage.

By being so successful the pressure only gets higher... You could consider making it modular from the beginning.

Just a thought.

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Sebastian

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #204 on: October 10, 2014, 09:18:18 PM »
Sebastian: seeing how many orders you now have, does this mean you will have better means for machining high quality parts? I expect a lot of people are expecting something much sturdier than a project box. So plastic would probably disappoint a lot of people. Let other companies do that... Please make it strong and try to get cable protection in the basic design. That's one of the things that freak my out when shooting with a dslr now, if you don't want to add another bulky cage.

By being so successful the pressure only gets higher... You could consider making it modular from the beginning.

Just a thought.

I am starting to investigate CNC milling the enclosure as aluminum but nothing set in stone yet, we will evaluate several options.

Cable protection would indeed be nice to have but I do not consider it an essential vital camera feature.

KurtAugust

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #205 on: October 10, 2014, 09:56:58 PM »
Sebastian,

CNC Milling sounds good!

Protecting the electronic boards and it outputs is certainly not essential, but it sure is nice. Perhaps just provide threaded holes so people can easily create custom attachments.
I know, I know, everybody is yelling you their ideas. Just pick the ones that work.
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Fioritura

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #206 on: October 11, 2014, 11:29:56 AM »
Hi Sebastian,

> Cable protection would indeed be nice to have but I do not consider it an essential vital camera feature.

I say this is partly true for cameras _with_ built in displays and recorders. With the AXIOM Beta it is essential. Lose the connect and you don't record anymore. Not good! I mostly do live recordings, so for me it is even more of an issue. No possibility of a retake, and I might lose that client as well. Potentially damaging the socket is also an issue, but at least the AXIOM Beta's got three of those ;-)

Regards,

Andrew

KurtAugust

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #207 on: October 13, 2014, 01:00:02 AM »
Sebastian,
I realize the focus is much more on the electronics right now and it's a joy to follow the irc logs.
But on a practical shooting level, I wonder where backers would like to see the focus on the box the parts goes into:

-A cheaper body to get the job done pretty well in a lab context. For developers. so non-crucial filming only. See the comment above (so really a beta or prototype camera)

-More expensive body that can also withstand real life situations. It can get pretty hectic out there and you'd like it if the camera can take a hit. (So already a production camera on a hardware level)

Two things that annoy me quite often:
1) a lot of camera bodies only have one threaded hole in the bottom. One you attach a follow focus, it quite often becomes very difficult to get this to be rock solid. Having more holes for a 15mm bars attachment would solve this.
2) Outputs directly on main electronic board. It really doesn't take much of an impact to have a dead headphone output. For example. Too often, protruding elements are only thought of when designing the body itself, while the cable that goes in it should be considered part of the system. Some camera manufactures even go so far as touting mini-jack plugs as "professional connections" and move it forward as a design feature (yes, I'm referring to Blackmagic design).

In general, you buy a camera and then you buy a cage.
Personally, I am really fed up with this. But apparently it makes economic sense to sell cheap stuff that is horrible to use and you need to spend more cash on add-ons than the camera itself. Especially if they are not universal and only fit that specific model.

Wouldn't be possible to have the Beta built as a cage directly? With a lot of mounting points built in? For monitor arm, 15mm bars, heavy duty base plates etc.

When holding the Aja Cion at IBC lately, I really liked how they managed to make it feel like a camera. It was really well balanced because it's so low and didn't feel like plastic. No other camera in the sub 10k € comes close. Not even the Sony FS7, which despite the ergonomics still has the touch of a prosumer camera to me.

I'm not asking to go Monster Bomb Ape Shit Tank Army Stuff design either. Just something solid that we can build upon.

How do others think about this?
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kontrakatze

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #208 on: October 13, 2014, 08:22:14 AM »
About 90% of the shootings I do are somewhere out in the wild, may it be a National Park in Norway or somwhere in the Alps. Therefore size and sturdiness matters a lot. It's no fun to walk with a backpacker of 25kg weight up to a summit just to know, that if it is drizzling you are out for nothing.
Same is for a quick shooting in a city like Venice, where you have to walk all the way. Sometimes I feel like one of those guys in Halo packed with gear.

Regards,
Kontrakatze

Fioritura

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #209 on: October 13, 2014, 08:27:40 AM »
@KurtAugust

> Wouldn't be possible to have the Beta built as a cage directly? With a lot of mounting points built in?

+1 :-)

Sebastian

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #210 on: October 13, 2014, 10:53:15 PM »
I like the idea of offering two enclosure options:

-) the cheap box for people who don't care about the enclosure and use the Beta in a lab or just for development/testing

-) the more sophisticated and more expensive cage/camera outdoor shooting enclosure


One general thing we need to be careful though ( and which is also the reason why we didn't make the enclosure in the AXIOM Beta campaign look super sophisticated) is that after all the AXIOM Beta IS a developer kit / prototype so we do not want to "trick" people into believing anything else by dressing the camera up in the body of an ALEXA simply speaking :)


I think a lot is possible for the outdoor enclosure and I am very happy that the first step of collecting ideas/requirements has already started. Maybe we can together collect all the essentials on our wiki: https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php?title=Body_Design_Options and we will soon be ready to create 3D concept models that take these suggestions/wishes/ideas into account where possible and then iterate on these designs until we are all happy.

budafilms

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #211 on: October 14, 2014, 10:34:11 AM »
@Sebastian

About cage, you should take a look  Asus Motherboards (called Saberthoot) have the original PCB and a second armor to protect the components.
Two options - strong vs light - it´s not satisfactory. But buying the cheaper you have the possibility after to add a kind  of armor and protect from water, rain, or add accessories.

Take a look: http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/SABERTOOTH_Z77/

mgrunca

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #212 on: October 14, 2014, 10:27:11 PM »
@Sebastian

Quote
One general thing we need to be careful though ( and which is also the reason why we didn't make the enclosure in the AXIOM Beta campaign look super sophisticated) is that after all the AXIOM Beta IS a developer kit / prototype so we do not want to "trick" people into believing anything else by dressing the camera up in the body of an ALEXA simply speaking

This is a good statement but please don't forget that the Axiom BETA project was backed by most of the 750 users with the expectation of eventually buying a working camera, even if one with highly experimental features and needing an external recorder. If we look at the big headlines of the campaign, they are stating that the Axiom is "A professional digital image capturing platform, for film-makers, by film-makers". I don't think that many of the 750 backers (I'm one of them) are both film-makers and developers. Many were enticed by the new open source image capturing platform and the modularity, all backed by ML and Bloom, and surely there are not many A1exes (if any at all, other than a1ex) among them. I think that if it was for many of the 750 backers to actually buy the BETA, it would already need to be half of what the GAMMA promises to be. It is just my feeling that the expectations are higher than just to have a box with a sensor to tinker with from the comfort of our homes. And I also think that the interest should be high to eventually have real orders for those BETAs, so that the sensor can be ordered with a bulk discount from CMOSIS, right?

In case the non-developers will be less interested in ordering the BETA, would they be able to keep and use their discount vouchers for the GAMMA?

LRF

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #213 on: October 15, 2014, 12:52:34 AM »
the AXIOM Beta IS a developer kit / prototype so we do not want to "trick" people into believing anything else

Strange, because while collecting money you stated: Meet AXIOM Beta. Professional Digital Cinema Hardware.

Oh, well, let's hope that backers got the difference and it's not a spectacular... misunderstanding.

-) the cheap box for people who don't care about the enclosure and use the Beta in a lab or just for development/testing

Spend thousands of Euros on Beta and on additional professional equipment just to make it work and then keep it in a lab for testing? If you say so...

-) the more sophisticated and more expensive cage/camera outdoor shooting enclosure

 :D
AXIOM Beta: Professional Digital Cinema Hardware - for shooting outdoors pay extra.

Which option is planned for backers for their "developer kit/prototype", by the way?

Sorry, guys, but it somehow sounds like an expensive joke.

g3gg0

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #214 on: October 15, 2014, 09:02:15 AM »
please dont rush into discsussion of this kind.
they are still finalizing the design that was shown on the pages.
any option is possible, from dev's view (open housings) up to rack-mountable with two screws.
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chmee

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #215 on: October 15, 2014, 09:28:24 AM »
reminding you of the mission statement:
Quote
The plan is to democratize camera technology and put the power back into the hands of the users. .. Your ideas and experiences will help us advance AXIOM in the future. The crowd funding backers community will play an active role in deciding where the AXIOM development is heading. ..
and
Quote
.. so we want to make sure that you know exactly what you are going to receive. Actually, we want to make sure that you are aware of what you are getting yourself into right from the beginning! The AXIOM Beta is a BETA product (which can clearly be deduced from its name). There will be bugs and other issues for sure, but we are confident that with your help, your experience and last but not least your input, we will hunt down every single one of them and turn it into a feature. .. As always, there is the small possibility that the AXIOM Beta will actually work flawlessly from day one. However, there is also no guarantee that it won't fail miserably at the beginning.

its up to you, magically transforming your sarcasm/pessimism into positive critique and kind of community-driven energy.

LRF

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #216 on: October 15, 2014, 10:35:42 AM »
In my humble opinion, when it comes to discussion about details of a "Professional Digital Cinema" camera for film makers and not scientists after it has been funded, one can propose various button shapes or layout, menu structure options, interface variations or body colors, but thinking IF it might have casing allowing it to be taken outdoor (which demo shots clearly imply) is simply ridiculous.

its up to you, magically transforming your sarcasm/pessimism into positive critique and kind of community-driven energy.

I would be pessimist if I started talking about future, that it's not going to work, there will be delays etc. But I don't. I don't have to worry about it. But I think that discussing most basic construction principles of something that's supposed to be a professional film making device and not a developer toy, is a joke. And I suppose that most of the backers imagined to have ability to take the camera out, not just keep it open on the desk and connected to computer to play with codes and switches.
Philip B. backed it to enjoy open source coding freedom? Sure.

That's how I see it. To let "community-driven energy" flow, I promise not to write any more sarcastic/pessimist comments regarding AXIOM Beta  ;D

Sebastian

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #217 on: October 17, 2014, 01:46:44 PM »
Now you have the chance to be a part of defining how/what you want instead of complaining about what you not want.

The wiki is still waiting for input :)
https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php?title=Body_Design_Options

kontrakatze

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #218 on: October 18, 2014, 11:01:21 AM »
Wouldn't it be nice to set up a separate forum to discuss things like that? Proposals could be discussed and voted for. And it would be more easy to follow the discussions in a transperant way. The Wiki is nice, but should be reserved for finalized ideas.




chmee

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #219 on: October 18, 2014, 11:34:39 AM »
agree. a subforum for axiom dev?

Quote
The Wiki is nice, but should be reserved for finalized ideas.
agree as well. in the wiki should stay actual decisions/positions of development, so anyone can read, whats the status quo - with links to the discussions.

nikfreak

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #220 on: October 18, 2014, 12:29:25 PM »
makes no sense to me. There's an Axiom forum available at their site:

https://www.apertus.org/forum/

Why create one here? probably linking to it just like linking to bitbucket is the way to go.
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Sebastian

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #221 on: October 18, 2014, 11:13:10 PM »
We do have our own forum but for some reason it was never really accepted as communication platform by our community...

We are currently testing a feature/bug/wishlist/task tracker system for this purpose: http://lab.apertus.org/

You are welcome to help test/fill the lab with ideas/wishes :)



Vegeta

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #222 on: October 19, 2014, 04:25:26 AM »
Hey Sebastian, since this camera is practically a modular computer (sorta), using basically the same sensor the blackmagic guys are using, I think it would be wise to install a closed circuit liquid cooling for the hot components. When running a cpu/chip at full force, heat will be an issue. The blackmagic 4k has heat issues when on for a while, which then changes the image being taken.

Liquid cooling is cheap in general, im sure some or most owners wont mind forking out $100 or so to get a closed liquid cooling system in their hardware to handle future hardware workloads which may be pushed by magic lantern when the chips are stressing.

kontrakatze

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #223 on: October 19, 2014, 09:34:03 AM »
@Sebastian: I think your forum is actually a more general one. For example, the hardware section appears to be about hardware in general, which does not help in this case. And in addition you have three things, the general forum, the wiki and the bugtracker/proposal list, which are all seperate and it is not very easy to get an overview, or just find the looked for information. Another example, the information about the different lens mounts can not easily accessed from the main wiki page, or at least I didn't find that link. Different accounts for each system doesn't help eather.

I think that needs to be more structured

mgrunca

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Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #224 on: October 21, 2014, 09:54:50 PM »
@Vegeta:

As far as I understood until now from the discussions on the forum, a feature like the one you requested, which would also future-proof the BETA, is only planned for the GAMMA. I would also love the BETA to be like an unrefined prototype of the GAMMA, but as far as I understand, the body of the GAMMA will be totally different. Only the GAMMA will have a true modularity (like what you probably saw in the pictures on the apertus website) and what additional accesories you buy for the BETA will not really work anymore, besides probably the active lens mount and surely the sensor. So a feature like water cooling looks like way out of scope, though I would totally love it.