Author Topic: Apertus Axiom Beta  (Read 300264 times)

Canon eos m

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • 5D Mark III, Canon EOS M
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2014, 08:43:44 AM »
€71,377EUR
RAISED OF €100,000 GOAL
71%  8 days left
Canon 5D Mark III, Gopro Hero Blacks with 3D Casing, A Few Lenses, Adobe CC 2014, MacBook Pro, Windows 8 PC, Lots of Video Rig!

Started Nuke. Loved it but then the 15 day trial ran out. Back to After Effects and loving it :-)

surami

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2014, 10:45:44 AM »
I just informed my friend about the project, he is an economic columnist at one of the largest online news portal of Hungary. Let's see what happens. ;)
550D + nightly ML

Sebastian

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Apertus.org
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2014, 11:42:33 AM »
Guys, you rock! I want to just hug you all  :D

The donations started flowing again - I really hope we will make it!



Yesterday we also announced 16mm sensor options, monochrome sensor options and stretch goals:

------------------------------

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/#activity

edit: having to scroll 5 pages is not fun ;)

Sebastian

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Apertus.org
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2014, 11:47:39 AM »
just read an interesting critique. where's an audio-in port? if its possible to encode the mediafile inside the body, it would be useful to give at least an unmanaged line-in to embed it into the file.

regards chmee

1. as we rely on external recorders for video those have the dedicated audio inputs. That way recording audio/video in sync is also guaranteed.

2. We still have the right side IO shield which is not 100% defined interface wise, we only have bandwidth for "slow interfaces" which would include audio, genlock, timecode, trigger, etc.
Since these interfaces are electrically all similar (we will need to look into the details - so far all SMPTE papers we found did not talk about electronic characteristics of the signal at all....) we might just make it user configurable (aka defined in software) what the port does.

Walter Schulz

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8294
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2014, 10:41:59 PM »
The donations started flowing again - I really hope we will make it!

I might be renamed to Cassandra for nick or forum title but I have to state the obvious:
This will drain out next 24-36 hours and will leave funding at least 15,000 Euros short.
Current cashcow is 350 Euro perk "Super35, 2nd batch" and 21 (= 7,350 Euro) are left right now. Will stopped (at current rate) in given time-range. 
350 Euro perk "4/3" is no runner and "16 mm" option - introduced today for whatever reason - is no seller, too. And I don't expect this will change.

As of today we failed to reach "the masses" to convince them throwing in small amounts. Look up the list and count up. And here, too: I don't expect this to change. We (as in Apertus Axiom Beta funding project) are not that present in the media, we're simply not a big topic for whatever reasons.

Time for Plan B ... Fundings running in will drop soon and harsh!


aombk

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2014, 11:18:43 PM »
maybe they are going to add a super35 3rd batch.

the media refuse to mention the campaign and the beta in general. they seem to be more interested in paid advertisement.

Walter Schulz

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8294
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2014, 11:27:18 PM »
The media didn't refuse to cover the project. Crowdfunding start was covered quite well.

But ML/Apertus co-operation wasn't a topic (apart from Slashcam (ML friendly, always!), I give you that.

LRF

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #82 on: October 02, 2014, 01:23:36 AM »
As of today we failed to reach "the masses" to convince them throwing in small amounts.

I'm afraid that the "masses" are not likely to appreciate effort of producing something that is not directed to them. After all we are talking about Beta camera, which will cost 5990EUR +VAT in its bare, most desirable version. And it relies on external recorder even to capture sound. Not to mention cost of additional stuff like batteries, viewfinder(?) etc. And in fact Beta prototype doesn't even exist, yet, as far as I understand, so nobody knows how much will battery last, will it overheat or not, will picture quality be better than what we can see now...

I understand that supporting this open source initiative might have some positive influence on ML development, but to convince an average DSLR shooter to take part in it, it needs to offer a bit more than "Social karma" or a T-shirt. To be honest, I'd prefer to spent that money directly to development of ML, rather than on a camera that is clearly addressed to a totally different market.

Sorry if my opinion is disappoints you, but I wish you all success, regardless.

aombk

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #83 on: October 02, 2014, 02:49:13 AM »
no, your opinion is not disappointing by any means.

the beta will cost 2300 for backers. thats half the retail price. you then need an external recorder and viewfinder or monitor and batteries. that means you can get a cheap (or expensive) atomos product or you can use a laptop with a hdmi or sdi to usb external interface. those sony batteries are cheap. also for sound you need an xlr (or not) mic preamp. all of the above according to your needs. all of the above are not that expensive and many people, including dslr shooters already have some of them or all of them.
do you want links for these solutions to check their prices?

i think the total sum of the above are a fair price to pay for a camera that we will be able to hack like never before, like no hacker or developer or engineer could ever imagine on proprietary products. thats what made the magic lantern developers to support this project.
and we can follow them to the core of image acquisition.

the picture quality we can see now is only a fraction of the quality the beta is set to achieve.
and why should the beta camera overheat?
these issues you address are actually a matter of the amount of trust you can show to the developing team.
and if you dont feel like trusting them thats of course totally understandable.

but trust is a complicated issue.

you trust the manufacturers and the engineers and the developers of airplanes and cars and operating systems and software and mobile phones and mobile apps and laptops and computers and tablets and many many more to do what has to be done so that their creation works for you and works safely.

why dont you trust these apertus (and ML) people as much? because the work under a different business model?

Canon eos m

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • 5D Mark III, Canon EOS M
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2014, 03:32:48 AM »
Trust is a complicated thing and needs to be earned.

ML has earned the trust of a lot of people.

The Axiom folks have a long way to go and I trust they will deliver since they have demonstrated the same attributes as our ML developers. However, the advice is to spend the money wisely because many a crowdfunding projects have gone bust - even the ones that exceeded their funding target by 10 times or more.

For example, your 4/3rds and 16mm sensors are not selling. Is means lack of strategy and understanding your target customers.

I contributed a token amount a few days ago and now will book one camera. Any suggestions on which one to buy and why?
Canon 5D Mark III, Gopro Hero Blacks with 3D Casing, A Few Lenses, Adobe CC 2014, MacBook Pro, Windows 8 PC, Lots of Video Rig!

Started Nuke. Loved it but then the 15 day trial ran out. Back to After Effects and loving it :-)

Canon eos m

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • 5D Mark III, Canon EOS M
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2014, 03:39:52 AM »
€76,492EUR
RAISED OF €100,000 GOAL
76%  7 days left
Canon 5D Mark III, Gopro Hero Blacks with 3D Casing, A Few Lenses, Adobe CC 2014, MacBook Pro, Windows 8 PC, Lots of Video Rig!

Started Nuke. Loved it but then the 15 day trial ran out. Back to After Effects and loving it :-)

mothaibaphoto

  • Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
  • pesky kid
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2014, 07:20:02 AM »
Opted for Super 35 second batch.
I think I made something crazy - I'm not sure, if this toy will be useful for me:
1. I need Active Canon EF Mount from the start. Iris control and optical stabiliser powered at least.
2. I don't want to buy external HDMI recorders - I have a lot of fast CF cards(and SSD, USB 3.0 HDD) already.
As far as i know, it,s impossible to record comparable in quality with raw data through HDMI.
I wonder, why, the heck, 3 HDMI and no one SSD?
I would prefer this FPGA to track objects I point on with finger on touchscreen in focus.
3. It has no any buttons and dials, ok, but touchscreen or ability to use tablet via Wifi as touchscreen with liveview is must.
4. External controller, monitor, power supply, the rig to mount all these on and elefant to carry  - how much it will be cost and weight?
4. A lot of software to implement - for camera itself, external/smartphone controllers and so on - will it be reliable?
5. There is a 3k$ for all I dream solution on the market today.
It can't do more than 30 frames per second in 4K and focus control, but they have better sensor and time till next summer to meet competition with AXIOM.

KurtAugust

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2014, 09:35:34 AM »
LRF:
The Magic Lantern team has done so much for us. If they were asking for ice cream, I’d say “Hell, have two.” As it happens, they love to tinker with cameras (and seem to be pretty good at it too), so I understand they want to get something in that that direction. How can I say no?

Canon eos m:
I’m quite interested in the 16mm factor and 4/3, but if the budget is there, why not go for the biggest chip and shoot in cropped mode if you want the deeper depth of field. I prefer a 4/3 for depth of field, which is much more as I perceive the world, but for now, all my lenses are full frame (except for the Bolex collection, which are RX collimated… different story). Seeing the gear you already have (your signature), I’d say, go full frame!

I also think the development will focus on the CMV12000 first as most people want that. With the other chips following later.

mothaibaphoto:
5. If the camera of your dreams is on the market, why not buy it and be done with it? I think your expectations for the Beta are quite unrealistic. They are very clear in what they are going for. Don’t blame them if they don’t meet your expectations.
Think of it like this: you buy the camera you need and that exists today. When the development of the Axiom gets at the point where it meets your requirements, you claim your perk and get the camera at great discount. You win. If you don’t want the camera: sell your perk to someone else. Perhaps even with profit. If they go bust: your loss.

aombk:
come on... bite the bullet... before someone else snatches that one perk... :-)

---

I have to think of Tesla, he had very advanced ideas. Quite often, he couldn’t get his development funded, because his advanced designs would destroy the market for the inferior products everybody was making tons of money on. Now we all use his ideas. Economics aren’t an assurance for human progress at all. Most companies prefer a slow steady progress instead of rapid development. Much more profit to reap.

It may very well happen that that the Axiom project fails at some point, but even then, we may all benefit because of the progress made.
www.kurtaugustyns.com @HetRovendOog

KurtAugust

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #88 on: October 02, 2014, 11:08:49 AM »
Alex,

Any chance of plotting the data of the CMV20000 on that chart?
cmosis.com/products/standard_products/cmv20000
How does 66dB dynamic range compare to 60dB? I guess the advantage would be more in resolution than DR, I guess?

As your main interest is photography, it may be interesting to have that extra resolution?
www.kurtaugustyns.com @HetRovendOog

LRF

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #89 on: October 02, 2014, 11:29:29 AM »
the beta will cost 2300 for backers.

I'm glad for you, that you don't have to count money before spending  ;)
The Beta will cost an European backer around 3 200 EUR, not 2 300 EUR.

Why? 2300 EUR + 350 EUR perk cost + (circa) 20% VAT, because, as far as I understand this sentence correctly, prices shown are prices netto: "Local taxes (VAT), custom fees or duties may apply when receiving your AXIOM Beta."
Total - 3 180 EUR.

Regular price will be 5 990 EUR + VAT = circa 7 200 EUR
Again, please correct me about VAT if I'm wrong.

you then need an external recorder and viewfinder or monitor and batteries. do you want links for these solutions to check their prices?

No, thank you. I did it long ago, when deciding what system I'm going to need and what I want to carry around with me while shooting.

you trust the manufacturers and the engineers and the developers of airplanes and cars (...) why dont you trust these apertus (and ML) people as much?

Because I buy my cars and airplanes when they are already built and tested by crash test dummies and highly paid tests pilots. Call me a miser ;) And ML team has absolutely nothing to do in that sentence.

LRF: The Magic Lantern team has done so much for us. If they were asking for ice cream, I’d say “Hell, have two.”

Tell me where to send money (not Bitcoins which I don't have) for Magic Lantern development, and I add a fruit salad to you ice cream for them.


I don't want to start a flame war, just trying to explain my (maybe shortsighted) point of view. Good luck.

kontrakatze

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #90 on: October 02, 2014, 11:47:26 AM »
I too think a solid sata interface or the like would be much better than three experimental hdmi interfaces. What is a nice sensor with capabileties of 4k 300fps good for, if I can't capture the data? May it be internal or external.

In addition the rising cost for a working system are not promising (active ef mount, battery mount, recorder interface, display, recorder).

Regards,
Kontrakatze

a1ex

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12564
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #91 on: October 02, 2014, 12:08:09 PM »
Tell me where to send money (not Bitcoins which I don't have) for Magic Lantern development, and I add a fruit salad to you ice cream for them.

As explained many times, ML should stay non-commercial.
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=13399.msg129541#msg129541
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6367
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=8545

However, Apertus has nothing do to with reverse engineering, so the commercial side is OK for them. And if things go well, I might be able to work with them and no longer rely on a daily job to pay the bills - that should be a huge win for the ML project. I've already explained this here: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=13456.msg130054#msg130054

=> please donate to Apertus, just as you would do for us:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera/x/692033


a1ex

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12564
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #92 on: October 02, 2014, 01:06:16 PM »
I've found some old DNGs on the Apertus website (October 2013), which had strong FPN, so I took one of them and tried to fix it.

The settings were unknown (I believe they were not shot at the base ISO), and none of the dark frames from the previous experiment worked. So I've tried to estimate the FPN and row noise from scratch, like this:
- used a bilateral filter to remove low-frequency details and strong edges
- used two strong line filters (one horizontal, the other vertical) to detect the FPN from the remaining high-frequency details

The result is not perfect (the correction introduced some artifacts, and there is still some FPN left), but the improvement is noticeable. If the Beta hardware will have lower FPN than the Alpha (as Sebastian hinted here), the remaining noise should be much easier to fix in software.

The image was overexposed by about 2 stops, but the blue channel was not clipped at all. It was too much for ufraw's highlight recovery algorithm, so I've applied my own (I've talked about it here).

The image also showed artifacts (like these), so I've used the VNG4 algorithm for demosaicing to avoid them.

Black level was also unknown, so I've also guessed it (0.1 percentile).



Left to right:
- original
- after fixing FPN
- after fixing FPN and recovering highlights

Developed with UFRaw + enfuse (DNG developed at roughly 0, +2 and +4 EV).

Full-size images, DNG files and UFRaw settings:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/j8xalnjw5cn7w8t/AAAi43GM33R2Q6jHP4JdwDNqa?dl=0

Feel free to push them and show your results, but don't expect to be as clean as a dual ISO image :P

Any chance of plotting the data of the CMV20000 on that chart?

It's in my first post from this thread (only the base ISO, from the datasheet):


The base ISO seems on par with 5D3's ISO 400; the question is how much it will catch up at higher ISOs (can't tell from datasheet). It seems slower (30fps at full resolution according to this). Sebastian, do you know if there's a V2 for this sensor as well?

KurtAugust

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #93 on: October 02, 2014, 01:52:48 PM »
Alex,

Sorry, I had forgotten about it being already on the graph.

The work on the dng's looks very good. Poor Photoshop does a terrible job on it. Axiom should be exited about your collaboration, and it seems they are!
www.kurtaugustyns.com @HetRovendOog

Fioritura

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #94 on: October 02, 2014, 02:37:44 PM »
Call me crazy but I'm on board :-)

Canon eos m

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • 5D Mark III, Canon EOS M
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #95 on: October 02, 2014, 02:38:01 PM »
€80,881EUR
RAISED OF €100,000 GOAL
81%  7 days left

ONLY 5 OF 99 FULL FRAMES LEFT
 :)

Sebastian: We need more FF's (CMV12000)

I think if 80% of the target is met Sebastian gets to keep the money.

Canon 5D Mark III, Gopro Hero Blacks with 3D Casing, A Few Lenses, Adobe CC 2014, MacBook Pro, Windows 8 PC, Lots of Video Rig!

Started Nuke. Loved it but then the 15 day trial ran out. Back to After Effects and loving it :-)

aombk

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #96 on: October 02, 2014, 03:02:37 PM »
haha, thank you LRF :)

Walter Schulz

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8294
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #97 on: October 02, 2014, 03:50:55 PM »
I think if 80% of the target is met Sebastian gets to keep the money.

Just RTFM. There will be no cashflow from indiegogo to Apertus if goal is missed.

mothaibaphoto

  • Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
  • pesky kid
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #98 on: October 02, 2014, 04:15:50 PM »
Canon eos m: Where did you find FULL FRAME ???
aombk: Please, give me a link to 4k HDMI recorder with 60 FPS. No, dont' offer me to connect a couple of 2000$ Atomos Shogun

Canon eos m

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • 5D Mark III, Canon EOS M
Re: Apertus Axiom Beta
« Reply #99 on: October 02, 2014, 04:30:47 PM »
Canon eos m: Where did you find FULL FRAME ???
aombk: Please, give me a link to 4k HDMI recorder with 60 FPS. No, dont' offer me to connect a couple of 2000$ Atomos Shogun

My fault I meant Super35 (APS-C) sensor. I was thinking the bigger sensor but wrote the wrong description.
Canon 5D Mark III, Gopro Hero Blacks with 3D Casing, A Few Lenses, Adobe CC 2014, MacBook Pro, Windows 8 PC, Lots of Video Rig!

Started Nuke. Loved it but then the 15 day trial ran out. Back to After Effects and loving it :-)