Author Topic: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?  (Read 40103 times)

a1ex

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[CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« on: June 29, 2012, 08:18:31 AM »
My quick list of candidates:

- Auto ISO limits in movie mode
- Picture style controls (same controls as with Canon menu)
- 60D level indicator (Canon has one too)
- Defishing (very rough in LiveView, although good in playback mode)
- Image effects (MOVIE menu) - they don't do any harm (they are simply DIGIC controls), but I don't think anyone will use them for normal shooting.
- Flash / NoFlash (I've used it on compact cameras and missed it on dslr, but now I no longer use it)
- Silent pics - advanced modes (I intend to keep only simple, burst and maybe matrix modes)
- Mirror lockup sync'ed with self timer (anyone using it?)
- Follow focus with LCD sensor (I don't remember anyone saying he used this)
- From Display menu: image position, orientation, upside-down mode (although they can be useful when you need them)
- Sticky DOF preview / HalfShutter (I never used those, except sticky halfshutter when running through DIGIC register). Trap focus no longer needs this.
- Some things from Debug menu (like tasks, CPU usage...) - but keep indicators with free memory and so on.

From that list, only silent pics is known not to work in matrix mode on some cameras, and I'll just disable that feature where it doesn't work. All the other things are working fine, but aren't that useful IMO.

You can come up with other suggestions too.

Removed:
- auto ISO limits (unstable, interferes with manual ISOs)
- movie remap (sorry for that, I know it was very handy, but causes stability problems)
- record with SET button (100% useless)
- ML auto ISO algorithm (was present in december version, but was too slow for real use)
- zoom in face detection mode (found to be unreliable, and couldn't find any use for it)

2xM

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2012, 08:28:09 AM »
I don't really use these features, but I like to know to have these features if I need them, because I could imagine at least one situation for each of this features.

Maybe it would be good to implement them as plugins (LUA?) and put them on the card, if they are needed?

a1ex

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2012, 08:28:54 AM »
The plugin interface and Lua scripting are in very early stages of development and will not be included.

weldroid

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2012, 09:25:27 AM »
Never used, and will probably never use:

- Auto ISO limits in movie mode (anyone used it?)
- 60D level indicator (Canon has one too)
- Defishing (very rough in LiveView, although good in playback mode)
- Image effects (MOVIE menu) - they don't do any harm (they are simply DIGIC controls), but I don't think anyone will use them for normal shooting.
- Flash / NoFlash (I've used it on compact cameras and missed it on dslr, but now I no longer use it)

Might use it some day:

- Mirror lockup sync'ed with self timer (anyone using it?)
- Follow focus with LCD sensor (I don't remember anyone saying he used this)
- From Display menu: image position, orientation, upside-down mode (although they can be useful when you need them)
- Some things from Debug menu (like tasks, CPU usage...) - but keep indicators with free memory and so on.
- Sticky DOF preview / HalfShutter (I never used those, except sticky halfshutter when running through DIGIC register). Trap focus no longer needs this.

Absolutely a must, part of current workflow:

- Picture style controls (same controls as with Canon menu)
       (ML controls let me to preview these instantly)
- Silent pics - advanced modes (I intend to keep only simple, burst and maybe matrix modes)
       (I do a lot of timelapses using these to save on shutter count)

BR,
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a1ex

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2012, 09:28:33 AM »
Instead of silent pics, I highly recommend FPS override for timelapse.

For picture style controls it's true, not all cameras let you preview adjustments in realtime. 5D2 and 60D do, so those users may find picture style controls redundant.

weldroid

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2012, 09:39:00 AM »
Instead of silent pics, I highly recommend FPS override for timelapse.

For picture style controls it's true, not all cameras let you preview adjustments in realtime. 5D2 and 60D do, so those users may find picture style controls redundant.

Picture style controls I could probably live without, but I prefer the current implementation. Separate settings for stills/video are completely useless to me though (I always shoot stills in RAW).

FPS override: true, and I am starting to use that more often, but at least the matrixing modes are very useful, because these let me do high resolution timelapses which I can use for panning/zooming kind of shots without needing to move the camera.
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a1ex

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2012, 09:55:42 AM »
That's good to know. There is huge potential in matrix mode (on 60D it is technically possible to move the focus box around at full speed - 30fps). There are still many details to sort out (the biggest one being memory - allocating large blocks of RAM is possible (up to 160 MB), BUT interferes with normal shooting).

It's on the todo list for 2.4.

weldroid

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2012, 10:07:28 AM »
That's good to know. There is huge potential in matrix mode (on 60D it is technically possible to move the focus box around at full speed - 30fps). There are still many details to sort out (the biggest one being memory - allocating large blocks of RAM is possible (up to 160 MB), BUT interferes with normal shooting).

It's on the todo list for 2.4.
It would be fantastic to have less delay between frames (that somewhat limits the usability of the current matrix shots). I'm on a 600D though...
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Schloime

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2012, 11:49:13 AM »
Seems like for every menu entry there is someone needing it. (except maybe the "Don't click me" button)
Would it be possible to hide individual menu lines and have a little arrow to show all when needed? Like in the windows menus, where seldom-used items hide themselves, but user-configurable?
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a1ex

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2012, 12:36:50 PM »
The user-configurability part is a bit difficult (especially how it will interact with future menu changes). But we can choose a very good set of defaults for the simple menu mode.

weldroid

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2012, 01:29:53 PM »
May I ask what is the ultimate goal by removing functions?
- optimizing the code (reducing complexity to improve maintainability)?
- optimizing the menu (user friendliness, no more space for possible new features)?
- both?
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a1ex

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 01:32:38 PM »
Both (especially decluttering the menu). Code size is no longer a problem.

Edit: disabled auto ISO limits too (because I've set it at 100-400, and manual ISO stopped working somehow - started working again after setting it to 100-6400).

ilguercio

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 05:34:45 PM »
Flashlight or white screen, can't imagine their use.
MLU is good, it should be a good habit when shooting on tripod.
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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 06:31:52 PM »
No problems with auto ISO limits either but I've stopped using auto in movie mode as its a bit impractical and showed 0 for the ISO most of the time. I use 80-2500 as that is the "usable" range. Maybe 1250 even as the 2500 gets noisy.

*Picture style controls (same controls as with Canon menu) - Use this for convenience... hunting through the canon menus for anything is a PITA on 600D. Once I set it to neutral though not much changing.
*Silent pics - advanced modes - Works well... why change it.
*Sticky DOF preview / HalfShutter - I can see the DOF preview being usefull if you want to hold the aperture shut for some reason but never used anything but HS w/ Trap Focus. Maybe keep half shutter just in case?
*Flash / NoFlash - in any real mode I don't think the camera opens the flash by itself. The only reason for me to use this is prevent flash from popping up.
*Mirror lockup sync'ed with self timer - Didn't know this existed but I think I used it on accident when I flipped to 2s timer. Produced very stable shots at low shutters and I was wondering why... now I knows.
*From Display menu: image position, orientation, upside-down mode- Never used this as we don't use DOF adapters on SLR.
*Follow focus with LCD sensor-- sounds neat but not possible on 600D.
Image effects (MOVIE menu) - I think nobody in their right mind will use this but it hurts nothing.


What can I say... I like features. Can deal with a little instability... others maybe not so much.



scrax

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 07:56:39 PM »
For picture style controls it's true, not all cameras let you preview adjustments in realtime. 5D2 and 60D do, so those users may find picture style controls redundant.

I use ML preview a lot instead of standard canon menu. So i'll suggest to keep them in advanced menu, maybe only on selected cameras?.

Also Mirror lockup with self timer, for me it will be default.

I have DOF sticky set to ON and Clear Overlays set to DOF, and I use it as a switch when sometime I want to keep LV clean, faster than opening ML-menu :)

One thing I've tried to do to clean up a little the menu is to move Power Menu and Config Menu to Tweaks Menu using a submenu like for shortcuts or LV zoom settings (but failed).

I've also re-enabled ALO/HTP on my test because was missing it :)

For me on 600D less used things are:
Defishing (having no fisheye lens...)
Vectorscope (didn't even know what it was before, but looks interesting to have)
Image Effects, not useful but why remove them, maybe we can be show only in simple menu mode?

Also to remove clutter IMO is to have all the "set once and then forget" options to a single menu organized in submenu:
MENU MOVIE (for example):
- BitRate
-- like now
- FPS Override
-- like now
- HDR video
-- like now
- Image Effects
-- like now but only in simple mode
- Settings (or movie tweaks?)
--Time indicator
-- Movie loggin
-- Movie restart
-- REC/STDB notify
-- Movie rec key
--Force Live view
-- shutter lock

MENU SETUP (instead of tweaks):
- LV Zoom Settings:
-- like now
- Arrow Key Shortcuts:
-- like now
-- (600D) DigitalZoom shortcut option
- Play settings
-- all what is in menu Play now
- Power settings
-- all what is in menu Power now
- ML Config settings
-- all what is in manu Config now
- Debug (only visible in nightly build)
-- Screenshot
-- don't click me
-- stability test maybe one for one since already in a submenu here.

MENU SHOOT
flash options like flash/no flash and 3rd party flash can be moved to a submenu (maybe better remove flash-no flash and add 3rd party flash to set button instead of 180° to shortcuts in photo mode)

MENU DISPLAY
- display settings
-- contrast
-- saturation
-- Color scheme
-- Image position
-  layout settings (with a better name)
-- Upside down mode
-- Orientation
-- Auto Mirror
-- Screen Layout
- Force HDMI_VGA
- Crop Factor display
- (600D) audio meters

Note: Upside down on my 600D works but I think that to be useful it need to reverse also arrows since probably camera will be upside down too.

FOCUS MENU
- Trap Focus
- Focus Patterns
- Follow Focus
-- like now and also with
-- Focus step size
-- Focus step delay
-- Wait flag
-- Focus end point
- Rack Focus (with a submenu like stack focus)
-- Rack delay
-- like now
- Stack focus- Focus box (LV) from display

MENU HELP
like now but with also
- shutter count, memory and temp display


Other small suggested change is Menu order:
AUDIO EXPO MOVIE SHOOT FOCUS LIVEV SETUP DEBUG HELP
cause livev can be "set and forget" if used with display presets (I have all active on 4 different presets)
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a1ex

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2012, 10:10:49 PM »
I like the idea, here's a very rough patch that rearranges menus a bit on these lines: http://a1ex.magiclantern.fm/bleeding-edge/submenus.patch

Small note: the focus settings (step size, delay and wait flag) are also used for rack focus, focus ramping, stack focus... so maybe a second submenu with 3 settings would be better? but then you will have to press more buttons to change focus speed.

Also, people will have to get used to new menus etc, maybe more clicks for old tasks, but probably it's worth it. What do you think?

KarateBrot

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2012, 10:42:57 PM »
I don't like the idea of removing features that are working fine. I think more features are always better than less. In my opinion there are some very nice features you put on your list!!!!

PLS NEVER REMOVE:
- Picture style controls (same controls as with Canon menu)
I am rarely using the Canon menu. I want to rely on the knowledge that I can reach all of the cameras features through the ML menu to keep it structured and organized and to have a good overview of my settings. VERY IMPORTANT!

- From Display menu: image position, orientation, upside-down mode (although they can be useful when you need them)
It's very very VERY handy for my 550D while shooting upside down or if I got a display attached upside down which can not flip the image itself

- Movie Remap
It's a shame you needed to remove it. I never encountered any bugs with it and I can't reproduce the Err70 bug you described. Can I re-enable it somehow?


What I use:
- Silent pics - advanced modes (I intend to keep only simple, burst and maybe matrix modes)
- Mirror lockup sync'ed with self timer (anyone using it?)
- Follow focus with LCD sensor (I don't remember anyone saying he used this)
(- Some things from Debug menu (like tasks, CPU usage...) - but keep indicators with free memory and so on.)


What I don't use:
- Defishing (very rough in LiveView, although good in playback mode)
- Image effects (MOVIE menu) - they don't do any harm (they are simply DIGIC controls), but I don't think anyone will use them for normal shooting
- Flash / NoFlash (I've used it on compact cameras and missed it on dslr, but now I no longer use it)
- Sticky DOF preview / HalfShutter (I never used those, except sticky halfshutter when running through DIGIC register). Trap focus no longer needs this.


Removing too much features would be a reason for me to stick with the dec22 version and not to upgrade ML anymore, to be honest!

But besides that: Thanks for putting so much effort into the development of ML.


Edit:
Small note: the focus settings (step size, delay and wait flag) are also used for rack focus, focus ramping, stack focus... so maybe a second submenu with 3 settings would be better? but then you will have to press more buttons to change focus speed.

Also, people will have to get used to new menus etc, maybe more clicks for old tasks, but probably it's worth it. What do you think?
I like the idea. It's getting more organized that way and one click more to open the submenu is not a big deal in my opinion =)
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scrax

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2012, 11:24:19 PM »
I'll take a look at the diff hope to understand how to move things in the menu.

Small note: the focus settings (step size, delay and wait flag) are also used for rack focus, focus ramping, stack focus... so maybe a second submenu with 3 settings would be better? but then you will have to press more buttons to change focus speed.
Also, people will have to get used to new menus etc, maybe more clicks for old tasks, but probably it's worth it. What do you think?

Yes probably a specific menu would be more clear, we can't have things more ordered without more clicks, only way to deal with that is to have shortcuts for everything (or in future a user selectable shortcut that can change any ml option).

by the way also ISO+LV was removed?
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a1ex

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2012, 08:39:52 AM »
ISO+LV is technically the same as movie mode remap. The problem went as far as doing persistent damage to movie mode in 60D (it stopped working, even without ML, and all I did to cause this was flipping mode dial back and forth a few times - with remapped C mode and movie resolution set to 640 crop). So, there's no way I will enable this in a stable release.

So far I've only removed things that were causing problems.

Kathode-Ray

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2012, 12:41:25 PM »
Removing too much features would be a reason for me to stick with the dec22 version and not to upgrade ML anymore, to be honest!

Hi,

Same for me here, if some key features would be removed that would end it for me and I will stick with the 15 may version i'm using now.

As with all features, there's always someone using them. I think the unstable ones that cause problems should be removed, but why not keep the rest? Personally, I don't mind lot's of features, and most of us ML users are like tweakers anyway, right? If the menu is becoming too cluttered, we need another menu :-).

Here's my list anyway:

- Auto ISO limits in movie mode: please keep this feature! I use it a lot in low light situations, with the lowest 1/33s shutter speed. In fact, I would like to see this feature re-enabled with 1/25s shutter for my 60D. Please??
- Picture style / REC picture style: can be removed AFAIC
- 60D level indicator: please keep! If I use Canon's level, the ML overlay is gone.
- Ghost image: remove
- Defishing: remove, I never use it
- Vectorscope: remove, never use it
- Image effects (MOVIE menu): remove, nice gimmick but no practical use AFAIC
- Flash / NoFlash: remove, never use it
- Silent pics - advanced modes: remove
- Mirror lockup sync'ed with self timer: remove, never use it
- Follow focus with LCD sensor:remove, 60D doesn't have a sensor :-)
- From Display menu: image position, orientation, upside-down mode: keeper
- Sticky DOF preview / HalfShutter: keep, can be handy sometimes
- Swap MENU <-> ERASE: remove
- Some things from Debug menu (like tasks, CPU usage...):: remove

I think movie remapping is very handy and I use it a lot. The only thing i've noticed is that when I use "C" remapping, some settings in the Canon menu go back to default:

- Image jump with wheel goes back to "10" (I have it set to "1")
- Auto rotate goes back to "ON" (I have it set to "OFF")
- Sensor cleaning goes back to "AUTO" (I have it "OFF")
- INFO button display goes to all three enabled (I only have the electronic level enabled)

The rest of the setting remain unaltered. Funny thing is this only happens if I use "C" to go into movie mode. ISO+LV works stable on the 60D as far as I can tell, never had any problems with it. I tried to reproduce the errors mentioned in the other thread, but it works fine. ML version is 15 may 2012, 17bf58ce429b+. Maybe this can help to make this feature more stable.

Regards,

Raymond
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c2s07

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2012, 12:51:52 PM »
I think you should keep the picture style controls, self-timer MLU and sticky DoF. I'm also one of those who loved the movie mode remap, but I understand your reasons to remove it, even though for me it worked stable all the time (except for the recent sound recording crash?)

Features I could live without: REC picture style, defishing, false color, movie REC key remap, image position and crop factor display.

Malcolm Debono

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2012, 01:29:53 PM »
While there are certain features which I don't use (such as fisheye, false colours, swap menu-erase, crop factor), I understand that these might be useful to others.

Would it be possible to create a simple config file with all the features so that we can choose which ones to keep/remove (for example histogram=0 would hide histogram while histogram=1 would keep it visible in the menu). That way each user can choose what's best for him.
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a1ex

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2012, 03:37:27 PM »
Great feedback, thanks to everybody.

Here's my proposal for the menu (60D - changeset ad4ed848db04 ) - heavily based on Scrax's one:


About features, I think I'll remove only what's buggy. I'll reconsider movie remap for future updates, if there will be a way to call it without side effects. Also I'm thinking to drop the simple menu mode (since it caused many confusions - why feature X is not on my camera?)

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2012, 05:22:15 PM »
The 15 minute test flipped around LV and movie mode a lot and nothing broke. I got scared for my shutter. Must be a 500D/60D thing.  Maybe we can ask if anyone besides 500d and 60D users have had trouble with it? None of my settings ever go to default with false movie mode... i change them in this mode and they stay in canon movie mode and vice versa.

Menu looks ok.
Battery level doesn't work on 600d?

min

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Re: [CLEANUP] What features are useless and can be removed?
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2012, 06:00:45 PM »
User configurable would be awesome if possible. I'm in support of not removing features rather here's what I'd like to see for simple mode and removing clutter:

Audio:
Analog gain
Digital gain (agc can be set to on here to reduce clutter)

Liveview:
Zebra
Peak
Magic zoom

Movie:
Fps override
Hdr video

Shoot (which I think would be more aptly named photo (versus movie)):
Hdr bracketing
Intervalometer
Bulb timer

Help: keep as is.

Essentially, i proposed features you need while shooting be accessible in simple mode, the other feature I imagine would be set once and be kept the same for the entire shoot. In advance mode:
Liveview and display seem like it can be one menu
Headphone on and output can be combined