Author Topic: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS  (Read 14670 times)

dopepope

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5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« on: February 11, 2014, 01:14:45 AM »
did a test the other month comparing the 5d3 raw image vs the bmcc 2.5k and a red scarlet mx.
tested the latitude, skin tone, and the ability to resolve detail.

http://caseywilsondp.com/2014/02/11/5d3-raw-vs-bmcc-2-5k-vs-scarlet-mx-part-1/

results were surprising to me.

Midphase

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2014, 02:51:12 AM »
Interesting...perhaps it's time to start looking at purchasing a Blackmagic 4K now that they lowered the price by $1000.

dopepope

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2014, 04:47:35 AM »
My only hang up is the history that black magic has with their cameras. Tons of the bmcc 2.5k sensors had dead pixel issuesplus the shipping delays. That being said their sensors that work like the one we used generated a good quality image with alexa like latitude. The 4k loses some of that latitude but if it handles an image like the 16mm sensor it'll be a great budget camera.

Midphase

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2014, 07:06:53 PM »
I think Blackmagic is ushering in the end of the DSLR era much faster than one would have thought possible. While there will always be demand for cameras which can both shoot stills and video, I doubt DSLR's have much life left in them in the pro and semi-pro arena, particularly for independent feature work.

As much as I am a fan of ML raw, I have to say that having just gone through the process of using them in a fairly involved shoot, I'm not sure I'd do it again if I had a choice to use a BMCC. Now that 4K is going to be available at a 5D3 price point or less, the argument for using DSLR's becomes even less persuasive.

I suspect NAB will bring some additional surprises that will put the final nails in that coffin.

P.S.

I also suspect that Canon will not have anything particularly exciting to announce, and if they do it will be priced well beyond the independent filmmaker's financial range.

albert-e

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2014, 07:25:56 PM »
I think Blackmagic is ushering in the end of the DSLR era much faster than one would have thought possible. While there will always be demand for cameras which can both shoot stills and video, I doubt DSLR's have much life left in them in the pro and semi-pro arena, particularly for independent feature work.

As much as I am a fan of ML raw, I have to say that having just gone through the process of using them in a fairly involved shoot, I'm not sure I'd do it again if I had a choice to use a BMCC. Now that 4K is going to be available at a 5D3 price point or less, the argument for using DSLR's becomes even less persuasive.

I suspect NAB will bring some additional surprises that will put the final nails in that coffin.

P.S.

I also suspect that Canon will not have anything particularly exciting to announce, and if they do it will be priced well beyond the independent filmmaker's financial range.

I agree that the direction to the future is 4K but don't count Canon out. We really can't predict the future, just saying:-)

dopepope

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2014, 09:31:26 PM »
I think Blackmagic is ushering in the end of the DSLR era much faster than one would have thought possible. While there will always be demand for cameras which can both shoot stills and video, I doubt DSLR's have much life left in them in the pro and semi-pro arena, particularly for independent feature work.

As much as I am a fan of ML raw, I have to say that having just gone through the process of using them in a fairly involved shoot, I'm not sure I'd do it again if I had a choice to use a BMCC. Now that 4K is going to be available at a 5D3 price point or less, the argument for using DSLR's becomes even less persuasive.

I suspect NAB will bring some additional surprises that will put the final nails in that coffin.

P.S.

I also suspect that Canon will not have anything particularly exciting to announce, and if they do it will be priced well beyond the independent filmmaker's financial range.

I remember people saying something akin to the death of DSLR video a few years ago, but advances keep coming out keeping the DSLR market going in the low-budget realm (corporate videos, local commercials, specialty 'b' cameras, etc). IMO whats impressive about the 4k BMCC isn't that it's 4k, but that its a S35 sensor that shoots real RAW. 4k definitely is the future, but 1080 as a final output still has years of life left, particularly in the broadcast market (I mean the Alexa is still 2.7k)
With a bit of extra processor power, I bet the next gen 5D (though years away) could easily have 4k capabilities, outputting maybe to something like prores422... so maybe if a mark 2 7D or something gets released sooner, it could easily have the same potential (the 1Dc has been doing it for a while after all).
As I mentioned in my write-up, the most impressive thing about the 5D3 when compared to the other two cameras is just how good the image looks pretty much right out of the box. Skin tones are beautiful, detail is up there with the big-guys, and the image is easily de-noised. I think this DSLR and others (like the GH4, though its a mft) have some life left in them for sure... where else are you going to get a full frame sensor that shoots (essentialy) raw for this price (or period)?

Midphase

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 10:27:23 PM »
Well, "full frame" as it relates to the world of photography is kinda moot when it comes to video. Pretty much every single DP that I know is annoyed at the extra mental calculations that he/she needs to do to convert focal length to what they're actually used to shooting on.

PressureFM

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 10:45:21 PM »
Well, "full frame" as it relates to the world of photography is kinda moot when it comes to video. Pretty much every single DP that I know is annoyed at the extra mental calculations that he/she needs to do to convert focal length to what they're actually used to shooting on.

I doubt photographers mind. The Canon 5D Mark II really changed the game.

Isn't it really a discussion about the dinosaur and evolution? ;)

Midphase

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 10:56:11 PM »
Of course photographers don't mind, but this is about video, and DP's where the standards are a bit different.

Let me put it to you this way -- you are getting ready to shoot a feature film, you don't have a camera. You have about $3k for a camera in the budget and you're trying to get the best possible image quality on screen. Do you purchase a 5D3 or do you buy a BM 4K?

I've been a huge fan of ML raw since the beginning, I own a 5D3 and I love the video that I get out of it. But when the clock is ticking, and there are 30 other people working on the set, and I've mobilized all sorts of artists, actors and gear do I feel like taking a chance on a camera with no playback, no official support, a time consuming back-end, and a possibility of having corrupted un-fixable frames in my footage when I least expect it?

dopepope

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2014, 11:04:21 PM »
Of course photographers don't mind, but this is about video, and DP's where the standards are a bit different.

Let me put it to you this way -- you are getting ready to shoot a feature film, you don't have a camera. You have about $3k for a camera in the budget and you're trying to get the best possible image quality on screen. Do you purchase a 5D3 or do you buy a BM 4K?

I've been a huge fan of ML raw since the beginning, I own a 5D3 and I love the video that I get out of it. But when the clock is ticking, and there are 30 other people working on the set, and I've mobilized all sorts of artists, actors and gear do I feel like taking a chance on a camera with no playback, no official support, a time consuming back-end, and a possibility of having corrupted un-fixable frames in my footage when I least expect it?

you're totally right of course, though because of the time I started working with and studying cameras for film (within the past 4 years), figuring out the difference between s16, s35 and ff35 in my head comes probably a bit more naturally than the older guys who are used to standard film formats.
and as for picking a camera to shoot on for a production, you're right again. smaller-shorter things i've been willing to risk the 5D3 on with largely pleasing results, but I've not ever, nor will I be likely to choose this camera for a feature with its current set of limitations. (though to be fair, the rare occasions I shoot on film professionally, we don't have immediate play-back either, but certainly a much higher level of trust in a functional image).

Midphase

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2014, 12:23:52 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I still think ML is the bomb and I love the incredible image quality that it has brought to my 5D3. I'll still shoot on ML raw any upcoming shorts and other thing until I take the plunge into the 4K world.

In a couple of months we'll know more about all these new cameras, and once we do the decision will be pretty clear. I expect the BM 4K to not do particularly well in low light conditions, I also expect its dynamic range to be narrower than the 2.5K model.

I think NAB will bring out a new "pro" 4K camera from Panasonic with a price tag to go along with it. I think GoPro will step up their game once more and offer a full 30p 4K GoPro with possibly a raw option...possibly. I think Canon will play the usual game of acting like they have no competition. They will likely announce a 4K raw option, but it will be really expensive. I suspect Sony will have their answer to the GH4, and Digital Bolex will need to drop their price to even have a chance to compete (they're doomed no matter what). I think RED might surprise us all with either a Scarlet price drop or a new "budget" camera. The main issue will be that RED's idea of a budget camera is not my idea of a budget camera, so when all the proprietary add ons are factored in, it will still be over $10k. I think Blackmagic will announce a PL mount option for their cameras (not the pocket). Lastly ARRI will introduce the 4K Alexa.

Wow...that was fun!

Canon eos m

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2014, 04:05:23 AM »
Discussion here reflects my sentiments.

My take on the ML on 5DM3:

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=2602.msg101116;topicseen#msg101116

(Post #901)
Canon 5D Mark III, Gopro Hero Blacks with 3D Casing, A Few Lenses, Adobe CC 2014, MacBook Pro, Windows 8 PC, Lots of Video Rig!

Started Nuke. Loved it but then the 15 day trial ran out. Back to After Effects and loving it :-)

hjfilmspeed

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2014, 04:52:38 AM »
Im no expert but if the 5d3 was shot at iso 100 you could pull up those shadows more
I think the bmcc shines at 800 while the 5d3 shines at 100 200 ish

dopepope

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2014, 08:01:02 AM »
Im no expert but if the 5d3 was shot at iso 100 you could pull up those shadows more
I think the bmcc shines at 800 while the 5d3 shines at 100 200 ish
I'm not sure I've come across that opinion before, though I'm certainly open. Always thought it shined most in increments of 160? Or that might just be for noise. We picked 800 as its a fairly standard...Well standard for "professional" cameras... and so it should be able to work at that iso.

WeekendWarrior

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2014, 09:01:50 AM »
The RED MX have a native ISO of 800 (to protect highlight clipping) which many people reduce to 320 in post. At ISO 800 you are not getting the most dynamic range out of the mark 3.. As for the BMC I have no idea.

daisermac

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2014, 10:06:04 AM »
You should set ISO to 100 on the 5D3 - you lose a lot of dynamic range by increasing the ISO no matter by what increments.

dopepope

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Re: 5D3 Raw VS. Black Magic VS. RED MX // TEST RESULTS
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2014, 05:05:59 AM »
You should set ISO to 100 on the 5D3 - you lose a lot of dynamic range by increasing the ISO no matter by what increments.

I'm going to cede this point, nevertheless I think it was important to use the same iso as the other cameras if we're going to say it can 'compete' with them. Otherwise the camera is like 4 stops crippled.