Author Topic: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage  (Read 459417 times)

hyalinejim

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #800 on: February 13, 2017, 08:56:53 PM »
+1

Looking forward to checking out Cinelog 2017. The ACR workflow is slow, but for times when image quality is of the utmost importance it can't be beat.

DeafEyeJedi

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #801 on: February 15, 2017, 07:11:06 PM »
5D3.113 • 5D3.123 • EOSM.203 • 7D.203 • 70D.112 • 100D.101 • EOSM2.*

hyalinejim

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #802 on: February 16, 2017, 01:52:42 AM »
I love it! Cinelog is amazing for so many reasons.

budafilms

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #803 on: February 16, 2017, 07:50:24 AM »
@DeafEyeJedi

Great video!

Do you have a similar link the use in Resolve under OSX?

Thanks!

Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #804 on: February 16, 2017, 02:49:03 PM »
@budafilms

There is currently no 'stable' OFX solution for OCIO in Resolve but we're working on something ;)

For colorspace management in Resolve Lite you have the option of Resolve's Colorspace Transform plugin, ACES workflows or Lut solutions (like Cinelog).

If you have Resolve Studio (the paid version) you also have DCTL. Paul Dore (@baldavenger) has built quite a few useful DCTL scripts: https://github.com/baldavenger/DCTLs
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

agentirons

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #805 on: February 16, 2017, 07:10:29 PM »
Interesting video, @deafeyejedi. Is there a particular reason you were changing the input space around so much? Was it just to experiment with random settings?

budafilms

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #806 on: February 17, 2017, 05:40:45 AM »
@Andy600

Thank you!
I will try Resolve Luts, meanwhile your cinelog is in development for this software.
I saw the Baldavenger work, it's interesting, but I need to simplify work and it's very complex and time demanding in real works situations.

NoCp_Albert

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #807 on: March 15, 2017, 08:34:51 AM »
@Andy600

since a few weeks I am use CineLog-C_DCP_2017 for ACR and I am very happy with the Result in my Video work.

I am working in WIN-10, Camera EOS 5D3-123 with MLV-rec and use raw2cdng 17.9 for MLV decoding to cdng for ACR in AE ore LR. In your Homepage User guide I found only your recommend the ap raw2cdng for Windows user and my questions is if I can use the actually version of MLV_dump ore MLVP>cdng as well.
EOS 5D3 -113,-123, EOS 7D2, EOS 400, Lens EF16-35 f4 L, EF35 f2 IS, EF85 f1.8, EF 24-105 f4 L, EF 100-400 L II, EF 600 f4 L, Samyang 14mm f2.8, Canon Tc 1,4III, Kenko Tc 1,4 DGC

Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #808 on: March 15, 2017, 03:57:42 PM »
@NoCp_Albert

MLV Dump and MLVP should work fine as long as the correct camera model tags are written. If cam profiles (not just Cinelog) specific to the model are selectable in ACR then the tags are correct.

The older raw2dng with .raw format wrote a generic model tag and fixed 5D3 matrices which meant either using a custom profile or re-tagging and adding extra exif data so MLV is the better option.

MLRawViewer was one to avoid because it saved lossy DNGs.

I really need to do a full evaluation of all new/current apps to verify their DNG exports especially since the addition of 10/12/14bit recording but most 'seem' to do ok.

Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

NoCp_Albert

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #809 on: March 15, 2017, 05:27:15 PM »
@Andy600

Thank you for your Info.

Of course I use the CineLog Cam profil as well for the 5D3.

 
EOS 5D3 -113,-123, EOS 7D2, EOS 400, Lens EF16-35 f4 L, EF35 f2 IS, EF85 f1.8, EF 24-105 f4 L, EF 100-400 L II, EF 600 f4 L, Samyang 14mm f2.8, Canon Tc 1,4III, Kenko Tc 1,4 DGC

bpv5P

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #810 on: April 06, 2017, 11:55:39 AM »
So, I tried Cinelog-C. It's great. I did a comparison between the VisionColor BMDfilm (the rebranded VisionLog, it seems), and the result was much better midtones and colors keep at full palette (on BMDfilm it seems that greens go to yellow).
This post is not some kind of attempt to astroturf, I'm just doing an honest feedback.

Now, can @Andy600 or any of you guys reading this answer me this question: how to correctly use ImpulZ luts on Cinelog? The LUTs embedded on Cinelog package works great, especially the "[CFL] Kodak Vision 2383 grade 0x", but I would like to have some of the ImpulZ LUTs. I've used many times the Kodak Kodak Vision3 50D 5203 (DP)_FPE while on H.264, but now on RAW I couldn't get the same colors.

Any tips? I use the LUTs from what camera/colorspace? And how about the difference between CIN, VS, FC and FPE?

Thanks in advance.

hyalinejim

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #811 on: April 06, 2017, 12:10:01 PM »
That's an interesting question! I've spent a lot of time scrolling through different folders, trying out different flavours of the Impulz luts.

This is very simple and it works for me:

1. In general use the Film Contrast luts
2. Arri Alexa luts work really nice with Cinelog straight out of the box

Also check out this lut I made, which I actually think is really nice

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=19338.msg182488;topicseen#msg182488

Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #812 on: April 06, 2017, 02:32:44 PM »
@bpv5P

If you want the approximate same colors as you get with H.264 then convert Cinelog-C to one of the DSLR looks i.e. if you shot H.264 Neutral choose Cinelog Neutral Rec709 in the OCIO config.

re: Which Impulz luts to use? I would suggest watching some of Denver Riddle's Impulz videos.

As @hyalinejim suggests, Cinelog-C uses the same primaries as Alexa Log-C and conveniently the difference between Cinelog-C (when applied to a ~11stop raw image from a Canon DSLR) and a normalized Log-C shot from the Alexa are very close. When you add a log-c lut Cinelog-C will probably look a little over-exposed compared to an actual Alexa shot but you can usually use Log-C luts IF they were developed for the Alexa by tweaking the exposure offset before the output/look lut.

@hyalinejim - I'll check out your Ektar lut later - your images look nice! :). We've actually got several rolls of that here and planning to profile it soon.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

hyalinejim

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #813 on: April 06, 2017, 03:30:40 PM »
Thanks Andy! I'm trying it out on lots of different clips and it seems to be usable in the majority of conditions, which isn't always the case with look luts. I'm looking forward to seeing the results of your profiling. I'm half thinking of buying a roll of Ektar for my once-used, gathering dust, mainly-a-decoration OM-1 body, and shooting a chart in one stop intervals with the 5D side by side.

DeafEyeJedi

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Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #814 on: April 07, 2017, 08:11:19 AM »
...@hyalinejim - I'll check out your Ektar lut later - your images look nice! :). We've actually got several rolls of that here and planning to profile it soon.

Oh hell yeah baby!

I'm half thinking of buying a roll of Ektar for my once-used, gathering dust, mainly-a-decoration OM-1 body, and shooting a chart in one stop intervals with the 5D side by side.

That would be a fun project. Love to see the results.
5D3.113 • 5D3.123 • EOSM.203 • 7D.203 • 70D.112 • 100D.101 • EOSM2.*

PaulHarwood856

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #815 on: July 13, 2017, 06:11:47 AM »
Hello Magic Lantern Community,

    I've recently converted from Mac to PC, and cannot seem to get Cinelog-C to show in Adobe Camera Raw with DNGs. I used mlv dump, and even tested MLVRawviewer to no avail. I'm using Windows 10, 2017 version of Cinelog-C, and the most recent versions of Adobe Photoshop and After Effects. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

- Paul

PaulHarwood856

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #816 on: July 13, 2017, 06:18:42 AM »
Hello Magic Lantern Community,

     Relating to my above post, I forgot to mention that Cinelog-C was the only profile not recognized. Adobe Standard, Landscape, etc as well as Embedded were there. Camera Raw even said Canon 7D. I placed the Cinelog-C_DCP_2017_for_ACR folder in Camera Profiles under Adobe Camera Raw and no luck.

- Paul

Danne

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #817 on: July 13, 2017, 08:17:20 AM »
How are you converting to dng? Upload a sample dng file.
Could you try processing MLV files with this:
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=10526.msg186929#msg186929

Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #818 on: July 13, 2017, 09:53:03 AM »
Hi @Paul

3rd party profiles like Cinelog-C need to go into a User directory not the main Adobe profiles directory (this avoids non-native profiles being systematically deleted when upgrading Adobe Camera Raw versions).

For Windows the install path is typically

C:\Users\(Your user name)\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles

Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

bpv5P

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #819 on: July 14, 2017, 02:27:57 AM »
@Andy600 you have mentioned that Cinelog is based on AlexaLog. What's the difference between them and why should someone use Cinelog instead of free AlexaLog?

Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #820 on: July 14, 2017, 12:34:58 PM »
@Andy600 you have mentioned that Cinelog is based on AlexaLog. What's the difference between them and why should someone use Cinelog instead of free AlexaLog?

@bpv5P

That's a perfectly reasonable question. I could just say that Cinelog-C profiles provide the best raw image conversion ready for transcoding but that is subjective. There are technical and aesthetic reasons why I believe this is so but the full answer would be very long and likely involve a lot of image comparisons across a lot of apps (something I should probably do for the website). I tend to limit my own opinions to technical aspects and let users' real-world use of Cinelog in creating their images do the talking. It's ultimately about getting the best results but admittedly you do need a critical eye to see it sometimes, especially if the shot is average DR and well exposed.

The profiles are just one part of Cinelog-C. There is also our look luts (we are profiling new film stocks atm) and custom OCIO configurations plus one2one support to factor into things. It's not free but it's entirely your choice if you feel you want/need something or not :)

I have heard it said "I tried xyz app but can't get as good/clean/nice an image as I get with Cinelog". While this is also subjective (and I hope they are not just describing the look of the flat log image lol) there is real math, implemented with a solid understanding of how the host app manages color, that is ultimately producing favorable user responses.
 
To answer your question better you'll need to be more specific about your 'AlexaLog' and where it comes from i.e. what is the app doing the conversion? Is it just Log-C gamma or the full colorspace? Every MLV app I have tested to date, that offer 'AlexaLog', 'Log-C' or other log colorspaces, seem to have their own interpretation that either does not use all or any of the published math or, if the math was used, is being implemented or interpreted incorrectly by the dev or is otherwise being adversely affected by the libraries used for building the app and restricting/altering the output to something other than what it is labeled as. If you want to provide a sample of your AlexaLog transcode and the original raw file I'll happily convert it to Log-C via Cinelog-C for you to compare.

I have actually worked with and helped several devs and their open source raw apps over the last few years in an effort to bring greater color accuracy, provide math or help with other color science related issues but, as has proven to be the case each time, there has been some fundamental limitation on what can be achieved with the open source raw libraries used.

The Cinelog-C log curve is Cineon, not Log-C (although Log-C itself is based on Cineon - the 'C' stands for Cineon) and there is a good reason for this. Canon and ARRI use slightly different methods to describe and chart relative exposure (I need to dig out the actual math but from memory the base ISO of a Canon DSLR is 400 relative to the Alexa's 800ISO when using ARRI's methods. 100 or 200 depending on the model according to Canon methods) and by substituting Log-C for Cineon you effectively get a close exposure equivalent to what you would get from shooting the same scene on an Alexa or Amira camera at the same EI/Ev. There is a small +offset difference (~2/3 Fstop) but it means you can effectively use Alexa luts and presets just by pulling Cinelog-C exposure a little before the Alexa look/lut. The toe part of the Log-C formula is very specific for optimizing the Alexa's noise profile and not really useful for much else hence why I didn't just go with a Log-C curve (I did experiment with Log-C and many other curves but Cineon was optimal). Cineon log is also ubiquitous in color grading and VFX apps so it's easy to linearize and is also relative to print density i.e. ready-made for film print luts.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Danne

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #821 on: July 14, 2017, 01:18:17 PM »
I've seen some great results with cinelog-c through acr. Impressive conversion work on dcp profiling. The real deal.

hyalinejim

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #822 on: July 15, 2017, 02:13:56 AM »
Such a thorough and thoughtful reply from Andy reflects the care he's put into Cinelog. And as Danne mentioned this becomes clear when you look at the results from ACR and Cinelog.

I'm not sure that Cinelog for Resolve adds much compared to debayering to LogC, but maybe I'm wrong about that Andy? Even if so, ACR Cinelog is worth it for ultimate highlight reconstruction, low noise and colour separation.

PaulHarwood856

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #823 on: July 17, 2017, 02:50:46 AM »
Quote
Hi @Paul

3rd party profiles like Cinelog-C need to go into a User directory not the main Adobe profiles directory (this avoids non-native profiles being systematically deleted when upgrading Adobe Camera Raw versions).

For Windows the install path is typically

C:\Users\(Your user name)\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles

Thanks Andy! This worked perfectly.

- Paul

bpv5P

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #824 on: July 18, 2017, 05:04:39 PM »
Ok @Andy600, thanks.
But... I have to ask: is @Danne and @hyalinejim doing some astroturfing for you?
I've noticed you're using some selling techniques (especially social proof and bandwagon bias).
There's nothing wrong trying to sell your products, but I don't like astroturfing and discourse manipulation, and as a open source community we should keep these things out of here.

[...]
there is real math, implemented with a solid understanding of how the host app manages color, that is ultimately producing favorable user responses.
[...]
The profiles are just one part of Cinelog-C. There is also our look luts (we are profiling new film stocks atm) and custom OCIO configurations plus one2one support to factor into things. It's not free but it's entirely your choice if you feel you want/need something or not :)

So, if you don't need to achieve the exact same colors between various cameras and don't need all the other stuff (luts and support), there's no advantages? Yes, it's our entire choise to feel we want/need it, but if there's no advantage, why would anyone waste money on it?
Since your choise is to keep color conversion linear, your two points of improvement can me the luma curve and color precision. Most people here don't need that precision in color, so on the luma curve there's no better dynamic range preservation compared to alexa-log (the version implemented on MLVProducer, for example)?

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to prejudice you or anyone possibly working with/for you. It's just that, if your product has no advantage over a free/open implementation, I think no one should buy it. I can think in a recent example like this: corporations were selling certificate authority for many time; "Let's Encrypt" implement a free/open implementation doing the exact (or better) same thing. Now everyone is going to Let's Encrypt. The same should happen with any product that does not do it's job. Contrary to what marketers say, quality is very important. You can do money with basically anything, but not everything keep itself on top of others if it has no advantages over these other alternatives.