Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage

Started by Andy600, January 24, 2014, 06:05:11 PM

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Danne


Andy600

@Danne - Getting temp and tint offsets to match across apps should work assuming they are based on CIE XYZ but white balancing when shooting is the key.

As Shot, auto and preset temps only work when they are correlated from a neutral reference white point and if that reference (stored as XYZ values under the As Shot Neutral tag) is not correct the apps white balancing functions will shift the white point and/or tint values correctly but with an offset, requiring correction.

The only way to accurately fix incorrect As Shot white balance is using a scope (most accurate method) or the white balance dropper tool on something that the user knows to be neutral - but this too can be wrong because in reality, few things are actually neutral so it's important to have a reference in the shot i.e. a simple gray chat, Macbeth colorchart or even some clapper boards.

Raw shooters need to be educated to shoot a reference chart from the very first take and whenever there is a change of lighting and not to think that 'because it's raw it can be fixed out in post' - it can of course be fixed in post but it takes more time and effort compared to getting it right when shooting. If there is no reference in the scene then neutral can only be an educated guess at best.

BTW, the Adobe DNG specification and SDK are a treasure trove of information ;)
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Danne

Yes, reference is key. I get outstanding Prores exports and controlled lut implementation if nailing wb from start.
Actually Chmee calculated camera multipliers to As shot values from CR2 files and I also got this working using dcraw applying Chmees dividing calculations and this gives a very close match to the reference CR2, both tint and temperature. Dmilligan I think uses the kelvin and r,g,b information provided from mlv_dump but when looking at the calculations he implemented it is waaay above my math skills. Actually sat down with a math teacher and a coder at work today. They are still scratching their heads. Mlvfs getting the wb right is quite remarkable and from what I know the only workflow which applies camera wb to the dng files? I can,t find/understand the constants to work with at all. Yet. Soon to be vacation ;).


alexidoia

Hello all,

I have tried to export my DNG from my MLV through mlrawviewer and MVLFS.
The DNG produced by MVLFS is twice as big as the DNG produced by mlrawviewer.
Each frame is around 4,2Mb with MVLFS against 2Mb with mlrawviewer.

Can someone explain this to me  ?

Thanks a lot.
Alex


alexidoia

Andy,

I am working with cinelog and am following your guide.
I am at the stage where I can fine tune my WB. You say it is time to get it right as this will be permanent.
This is something I am not sure about.
We are preparing prores export to be able to edit in our favorite NLE. Okay
But when the editing is done, we will come back in Resolve and get rid of the prores to work again on our DNG files, right ?
It is then not that a big deal if we dont set the WB correctly at this stage, right ?

Or am I missing something ?
Alex

alexidoia

If someone could confirm me that the prores files will only be used for editing and that I will swap them with the DNG at the end, that would be cool.

DeafEyeJedi

@Andy600:

Question(s) is there a quicker way to copy and paste OCIO's settings for each clip similar to what I'm doing in this clip below?

https://vimeo.com/129978142

Also I'm starting to learn/feel its 'sweet spot' of 5D3's sensor when using Cinelog-C -- is it normal to shoot slightly underexposed (1/2 to 3/4 sometimes one full stop) in order to compensate for easier and smoother post workflow specifically for Cinelog-C.

I find it rather difficult to try and Match the scenes together with non dual ISO and dual ISO files -- is this to be expected and is probably a good idea to stick with NON DUAL ISO MLV for the most part unless you want the full DR, correct (Not sure if the color matrices are the same with Dual ISO and Regular MLV files)?

Lastly, is there any way for me to instead of exporting ProRes in Cinelog-C and just save as Adobe Link Project to try and open in PP because it doesn't seem to work on my end with PP -- thus forcing me to export ProRes every time, hmmm?

Thanks!
5D3.113 | 5D3.123 | EOSM.203 | 7D.203 | 70D.112 | 100D.101 | EOSM2.* | 50D.109

Andy600

@alexidoia - You can of course work with Cinelog in a proxy workflow as you are describing but doing so will not offer any real benefits in terms of final quality and grade capability. Proxy workflows actually complicate things and increase both the amount of time required to achieve a new primary grade and add significant load to your CPUs/GPUs that could otherwise be used for additional nodes, plugins etc plus there is more scope for things to break.

Using Cinelog in a digital intermediate (DI) workflow splits the initial heavy-load process of debayering plus white balance and exposure fine tuning, from the later grading part and, if you export Cinelog-C as ProRes 444 or XQ, you will have the benefit of NLE-friendly smaller files that can be graded just as much as the raw images plus a very high quality log master for archiving - you can even revert Cinelog-C encoded video to a scene linear debayered image for VFX etc without any significant loss.

If you think about hi-end cinema cameras with built-in log profiles such as Slog, Log-C, Canon log etc, they all use the same process described above in the camera itself BUT you must always set exposure and white balance correctly before hitting record. Fixing an incorrect, baked-in white balance is somewhat limited by the codec and can be difficult. With raw recording you are simply deferring a lot of things to post where you usually have more time, freedom and finer controls but debayering, white balance and exposure tweaks are still required - debayering images eats CPU/GPU cycles.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Andy600

@DeafEyeJedi

1) select all clips and create a single timeline then add an adjustment layer (at the top) - you then only need to add one instance of the OCIO plugin. It will affect everything below it.

2) there is no sweet spot when it comes to Cinelog-C and you shouldn't be exposing for it. You should always expose using the raw meters then adjust the exposure slider in ACR accordingly.

3) re: Dual ISO - Cinelog-C isn't designed for the DR that can be achieved with Dual ISO. Cinelog-C has a maximum linear-to-log transfer of ~13.5 f-stops (Cineon) and sometimes Dual ISO images will exceed this. I would suggest exporting DUAL ISO shots as Log-C which is the same in terms of primaries but has around 1 stop more latitude. You can then transform to Cinelog-C if you want to use any of the Cinelog-C rec709 or film look luts but you will probably find they work well on HDR/Dual ISO shots in Log-C without transforming to Cinelog-C.

4) Camera matrices should be the same for MLV and Dual ISO - they are camera specific.

5) Which version Adobe SW are you using? Have you tried opening the linked project without any plugins applied, then add the OCIO plugin(s) in PP.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

DeafEyeJedi

Thanks @Andy600 for your valuable pointers once again -- greatly appreciated!

Here's another surprise from this tiny M that I almost just decided to sell (only because I find PDR a PITA) but until I recently used MLVFS with your remarkable Cinelog-C luts...

'Malbec' -- MLV shot on EOS-M w Nikkor 50 1.4 AI (Cinelog-C + 2 LUTS)

Not too shabby for a $200 camera after-all...

lol
5D3.113 | 5D3.123 | EOSM.203 | 7D.203 | 70D.112 | 100D.101 | EOSM2.* | 50D.109

baldavenger

@Andy600:

Hi Andy, how's progress with the Cinelog website going?  Any chance the Community and Tutorials sections of the Lut Bank will be available soon?
EOS 5D Mark III | EOS 600D | Canon 24-105mm f4L | Canon 70-200mm f2.8L IS II | Canon 50mm f1.4 | Samyang 14mm T3.1 | Opteka 8mm f3.5

DeafEyeJedi

5D3.113 | 5D3.123 | EOSM.203 | 7D.203 | 70D.112 | 100D.101 | EOSM2.* | 50D.109

Terry Tibbs

Hey!

Can anyone tell me where I need to install the Cinelog V.3 Digital Camera profiles folder in order for it to work in Adobe camera Raw?

I'm using Windows 7.... I have tried Application Data/Adobe/Camera Raw/Settings and Camera Profiles, but when I go into ACR it only wants XMP files. The files in the pack are DCPs...

I can't access the online user guide for some reason

Cheers

Terry Tibbs.

Andy600

Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

DeafEyeJedi

5D3.113 | 5D3.123 | EOSM.203 | 7D.203 | 70D.112 | 100D.101 | EOSM2.* | 50D.109

Terry Tibbs

Thanks DeafEyeJedi.

What should I call you for short?

I've responded with thanks and another question. Fancy a look? I'm not sure how to hotlink it here.

I can copy and paste if you like!

Andy, sorry for badgering you so much. I really think I'm almost there though, and thanks for all your help! :)

Terry Tibbs

Hi chaps.

Last night I got footage into Premiere and it matches pretty closely.

Can anyone just confirm to me that on PC the best output render for me when trying to match C300 C-Log with my 5DMKIII would be Avid DNxHD 444? I'm assuming it's either this or Avid DNxHD 185.

Also, with my 5D is the OpenColourIO output Cinelog-C?  Pretty sure DeafEyeJedi has confirmed this,  just double checking.

It's the former question I am most unsure about. The match is pretty good,  I just need to mess with the Three Way Colour Converter a little to get it spot on.

If these two things are correct,  I am basically ready to rock and roll!

Anyone? XxX

dubzeebass

How do you get canon log to match with cinelog-c? I have a c100 mk2.

Terry Tibbs

@Andy - have managed to get a good match for my 5DMKIII to the C300 footage so thanks a lot and thanks to everyone else who helped me with this as well as the noise issues.


@Dubzeeebass I'm not really qualified to answer this but if you're a Cinelog owner I'd say it's somewhere in your input and output settings in OpencolourIO...


dubzeebass

Sorry, I didn't mean with LUTs, I figured you had some colour tweaks in Resolve or Photoshop to approximate them.

Terry Tibbs

@Dubzeeebass I don't mean with LUT's either. (I think) I mean when trying to match the output with OpenColourIO from After Effects.

For example, I'm trying to match my 5DMKIII footage with Canon C300 footage, and to do that I'm using Cinelog and OpencolourIO.

The LUT I am using is Film Convert and that comes later.

vstrglv

I am going to buy Cinelog-C and have a question. Should I buy this SW again if I upgrade my PC? And is it possible to install this SW on two PC?
Canon 5D3,1.1.3; Canon EOS M,202,  CF-SanDisk Extreme PRO,160MB/s, 256GB, SD-SanDisk Extreme Pro, 170MB/s, 128GB.


DeafEyeJedi

Does anyone here know how to install OpenColorIO for PP CC?

I tried to open Project (from AE) in PP and I get a pop up window saying that 'I am missing AE.OpenColorIO.plugin'.

However, in which I did install the OCIO plugin in a plugin folder in content directory for PP CC but it says it needs to be in a video filter folder so I'm not sure where to locate that -- hmmm?

Thanks!
5D3.113 | 5D3.123 | EOSM.203 | 7D.203 | 70D.112 | 100D.101 | EOSM2.* | 50D.109