Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage

[xaled]

Hi Andy600

just bought the Cinelog package and trying to get all the options sorted.

I have the same question as @ruber - does Cinelog work with MLVProducer?
If yes - could you describe the common workflow?
if no - what are the reasons?

[Andy600]

Hi xaled,

Sorry, Cinelog is for DaVinci Resolve or Adobe Camera Raw only depending on which version you have. MLVProducer doesn't support full colorspaces AFAIK, only log gammas. The Cinelog look luts should work with it but the source gamut will be incorrect. They are built for Alexa Wide Gamut RGB only.

I haven't looked at MLVProducer for a few weeks but I'll download the latest version and see what has changed and what is possible.

Edit: Just tried MLVP and although the Cinelog look and rec709 luts load ok the working gamut is not correct so the colors are wrong. The gamut is not changeable as far as I can see, only the gamma curve. The Cinelog Resolve luts will definitely not work - They are a different format and converting them to another lut format will not help as you would lose a lot of precision.

[xaled]

Hi Andy,

Thank you for the reply.

So it is "only" incorrect working gamut that stands in the way of using MLVProducer with Cinelog?

Sorry if my questions sound silly, I just getting to know all the technology and terminology.

[dfort]

Hi Andy600, I've been catching up on my reading and trying to understand what all this is about.

A friend of mine is a DP on some pretty high budget features and it is interesting that he is moving away from shooting raw on the Alexa to ProRes 4444 XQ even for VFX shots. He says that there is really no reason to shoot raw any more. Of course that isn't possible on DSLRs so shooting raw and transcoding to ProRes (or DNxHD) makes sense.

By the way, I don't know if this is the right place to report this but on your page: http://www.cinelogdcp.com/colorspace-transforms-acr/ there is a broken link to http://www.cinelogdcp.com/opencolorio-support

[Andy600]

@xaled - I think MLVP displays white balanced camera raw RGB and has options to apply log transforms. It doesn't have gamut controls. If it did you could debayer MLV to the same primaries and curve as Cinelog-C (or other log colorspaces) then use the Cinelog Rec709 and look luts.

@dfort - shooting raw is seen as overkill and uneconomical for most productions, especially when the Alexa has ProRes XQ. The only significant benefit is the ability to change white balance multipliers easily in post but DPs are usually very careful with lighting and camera setup before hitting record, especially on big budget features. ARRI's transcoding app has the same debayer algorithm as the camera and most colorists that I know tend to commit raw to DI anyway, even when there is heavy compositing planned. The raw files then act as backups. There really isn't much between Log-C ProRes XQ and raw. End-to-end raw requires a lot more processing power and storage which is a big budgetary factor, especially with 4k/6k/8k becoming the norm so I can easily see your friends point.

If we had even 10bit internal log capture I'd bet 95% of users wouldn't ever shoot raw but unfortunately we're stuck with 8bit h.264 native recording. Raw is really our only option (a great option to have obviously). Transcoding to a log space in ProRes/DNxHD/DNxHR just keeps the data manageable.

[Tyronetheterrible]

Hi Andy600,

Just wondering if there is a definitive workflow when using FilmConvert with Cinelog-C Log Masters in DaVinci Resolve? I am not sure whether or not to add FilmConvert before or after color grading the Cinelog-C Log Masters. I am also unsure of the best camera profile to use in FilmConvert to use in conjunction with the Cinelog-C Log Masters. I want to make sure I am getting the best possible results using both of these products.

Thanks! 

[johannsebastianbach]

Is there any option to use Cinelog with, for example Magic Lantern Processor http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=13512.0 or would one always need to use the AE Plugin/Resolve?

[Tyronetheterrible]

Question for you folks who color correct your Cinelog-C Log Masters in DaVinci Resolve; how do you go about adjusting the settings that you normally would under the Camera Raw Master Settings and Decoder Settings tab? (I.E. Exposure, Contrast, Midtone Detail, etc.)

And happy new year, everyone! 

[budafilms]

@Tyronetheterrible

After set BMCC - or BMCC4K if you prefer black at cero - , the rest is in Davinci Resolve Manual. Same as a Black Magic Camera.

[Tyronetheterrible]

@Tyronetheterrible

After set BMCC - or BMCC4K if you prefer black at cero - , the rest is in Davinci Resolve Manual. Same as a Black Magic Camera.

Thanks for the reply budafilms! This is going to sound dumb, but, how exactly would I set it to BMCC / BMCC4K?
Normally when I would work with DNG files, I would set the Color Space and Gamma to "BMD Film" under the Camera Raw settings, enable "highlight recovery", and so on and so forth, but since these settings are inaccessible when working with ProRes Cinelog-C Masters, how would I go about doing this?

Thanks again! 

[Andy600]

@Tyronetheterrible

The raw panel controls are unavailable for anything other than raw files. For Cinelog-C files you can either use RCM by setting Resolve color management to YRGB Color Managed in the settings panel i.e.:

Input: Cineon
Workspace: Alexa Log-C
Output: BMD Film

or add the Cinelog-C to BMDFilm lut with Resolve color management set to YRGB - if you used Cinelog-C luts in Resolve to produce the ProRes files this method will give the most accurate color when compared to debayering DNG files to BMD Film in DaVinci YRGB colorspace. BMD Film colorspace in RCM is a little different.

You can think of 'gain' as your exposure control but for it to work like exposure you need to use it on a linear signal i.e. add the relevant 1D lut (from the VFX lut folder) to convert it to linear on say node#1, then another node with your tonal adjustments (contrast, gain, gamma etc).

Basic log grading can be as simple as adding some contrast and adjusting the offset/pivot point using Resolve's log tools then refine using the basic LGG controls and/or curves. Midtone detail and other controls are still available to non-raw footage but are initially hidden from view on page 2 of the color wheels tab (see the image below).

[Tyronetheterrible]

Thanks so much for the clarification, Andy600! This helps tremendously.

To produce my ProRes Cinelog Masters, I set DNG colorspace to BMDFilm, enabled highlight recovery, used the BMDFilm to Cinelog-C LUT, and then applied basic color correcting and NR.

In my ProRes Cinelog Masters, I currently have the Cinelog-C to Cinelog-C Film Matrix RGB LUT in my first node, applied color grading in second node, and then have FilmConvert in third node.

If were to use the Cinelog-C to BMDFilm LUT that you mentioned, would you recommend I include it in a node before the Cinelog-C to Cinelog-C Film Matrix RGB node?

[snipeua]

Last updates of cinelog almost year ago....any news or plans?

[DeafEyeJedi]

It's coming soon ... I can feel that he's been hard at work lately and should release by Spring if not sooner.

[GutterPump]

The raw panel controls are unavailable for anything other than raw files. For Cinelog-C files you can either use RCM by setting Resolve color management to YRGB Color Managed in the settings panel i.e.:

Input: Cineon
Workspace: Alexa Log-C
Output: BMD Film

Hi Andy, i tried this way but i get a very dark picture, i dont know what mistake i did. RCM = Color Mangement Setting, right ?



Anyway, it was just a test, i dont will stop to use Cinelog-C, and will be happy if a new update comes.

[Andy600]

@GutterPump - Those RCM settings I posted are for when you have already rendered ProRes/DNxHD files using the Cinelog Luts. The image shows you are using a raw file so the input should be set to linear, the workspace and output can then be set according to whatever output you need.

@snipeua - It's coming. I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot and say a date but the first of the free updates sent will be for the ACR/AE version. The update features new camera profiles and support for more camera models plus an updated OCIO config including provision for working temporarily in YUV, and new workspace ICC profiles - this gives more accurate matching to Nuke and Resolve levels and makes the intermediate files easier to work with across platforms/apps that have color management (OCIO, RCM etc). The new profiles keep things cleaner and don't need HSV tables. They also make better use of ACR's unique highlight rebuilding 'trick' and provide slightly more perceived DR than a DNG debayered in Resolve, Nuke or other DNG readers.

A Resolve lut update will follow with support for more colorspaces and input profiles (including baked-in profiles Cinestyle, ProLost, GH4 Vlog-L, A7s series Slog etc) and of course there will be new looks for both versions.

We've also been working on a powerful Cinelog Plugin for both AE and OFX with builtin support for a huge range of colorspaces/profiles plus a pro version that will allow users to expand functionality through custom OCIO, CTL scripting (including live editing), simple math functions, ICC profiles or luts.

[DeafEyeJedi]

Good thing I never ditched the AE/OCIO combo -- they mate well together, don't they?  [emoji5]

Thanks Andy for yet another spoiler alert and looking forward to the upcoming new features!

[Kharak]

@Andy

Looking very much forward to this update. Keep up the good work!

[agentirons]

Hey @Andy600, any updates about the new ACR/AE camera profiles and Cinelog plugin? Still really excited to try them out!

[DeafEyeJedi]

Yesterday was just literally the first day of Spring ... Please just be patience guys and I personally know that @Andy600 has been (still is) hard at work for the much hyped Update for us that continue to make use of his remarkable products.

I am just as anxious as you all are but bugging him isn't going to speed up the process and let alone adding more stress on his already full plate isn't the most practical way of a solution, right?

 

[marekk]

Hi Andy600,
Could you please specify what options are currently considered as "best settings" for Davinci Resolve 12 to:
1) open and edit ML DNG files directly in Davinci Resolve end export final movie in Rec.709 2.4
2) export ML DNG sequences as prores files in some universal log format, for example Arri Log C

I'm looking for correct settings for:
Color science, Input Colorspace, Timeline Colorspace, Output Colorspace, Lookup tables (with full Cinelog Lut names).

Thanks in advance
marekk

[djkraq]

I just bought this product a few days ago. 

The good:
Color correction, color grading is a BREEZE with this product!  So many LUTS to choose from!  Now I spend less time color grading and more time being creative!  I am now a firm believer in RAW video. 

The bad:
It took me 2 days to get OCIO and MLVFS installed.  Make sure you follow the directions to the "T"!  It is paramount! 

[beauchampy]

Does anyone have an up to date method of getting 5D3 DNGS to Alexa LogC colour space using Resolve 12?

[Andy600]

@beauchampy

In Resolve 12.5 (highly recommended) use DaVinci YRGB Color Managed (RCM) and set the following:

Click 'Use separate colorspace and gamma'

Alexa LogC

Input colorspace: Bypass / Linear
Timeline: ARRI Alexa V3 / ARRI LogC


Cinelog-C

Input colorspace: Bypass / Linear
Timeline: ARRI Alexa V3 / Cineon Film Log

Set the output colorspace to the same settings as the workspace if you want to export a log output (remember choose a minimum 10bit codec or higher) or display setting (rec709 / Rec709 etc for mastering).


It's very logical providing you know the input colorspace so, for instance, if you have Cinelog-C ProRes files and want to grade in Rec709 colorspace for Rec709 delivery you would select:

Input colorspace: ARRI Alexa V3 / Cineon Film Log
Timeline: Rec709 / Rec709
Output colorspace: Rec709 / Rec709

Different timeline settings will alter the behavior of the color tools.


If you don't want to use RCM for the whole project you can now use the Colorspace Transform Plugin on a node.

[beauchampy]

@Andy600

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I feel like I understand this a bit better now.

I'm still a bit confused however, and the results I'm getting are a bit strange.

Basically I'm working on a 'behind the scenes' music video project. I have DNG files from 5d MK III (BTS camera) as well as Arri Alexa Log-C ProRes (the A camera on the shoot). If possible, I'd like to get the 5D Raw in the same space as the Alexa so we can just use the same LUTS and get the same look..

So I'm in Resolve 12.5

Go to Master Project settings and change the Color science to 'DaVinci YRGB Color Managed'

In 'Camera Raw' I have my CinemaDNG set to Color Space 'BMD' and Gamma 'BMD Film'

Color Management
- Use separate color space and gamma checked
- Input colorspace: Bypass / Greyed out
- Timeline: Arri Alexa V3 / Arri LogC
- Output: Rec709 / Rec709

But now my 5D Raw looks incredibly crushed, clipped and over saturated. I'm aiming for an Arri LogC image which I can use Alexa Luts on..

I'm just delivering for web / Youtube / Vimeo if that helps.

Nailing this workflow would be a game changer for me. If you can help me work out where I'm going wrong, I'll be really really grateful.

Thanks so much

Beauchampy